Forum Request for everyone.

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#61
OK. Since Meehandoost is not providing a straight answer, I am going to provide this answer from Bahaiteachings.org.

http://bahaiteachings.org/is-the-bahai-faith-islam-lite

"One upfront caveat, however: I make no claim to any erudite scholarship in this area. I’ve been a Baha’i for almost fifty years, and as a Baha’i I’ve studied all of the major global Faiths including Islam—but I do not possess a great deal of scholarly expertise in Islamic theology, jurisprudence and law. Hopefully, those who do will weigh in as we publish the articles in this series, and contribute to the dialogue.

I will say, however, that I have great respect for all the Muslims I know, and as a Baha’i I believe Muhammad was a prophet of God and the Qur’an a Holy Book. I love and respect Muhammad and his teachings, as all Baha’is do.

That’s because Baha’u’llah—who came from a Muslim background, just as Christ came from a Jewish heritage—specifically honored Muhammad and his teachings. Baha’is see Islam as the parent religion of their Faith, in the same way Judaism gave birth to Christianity. Since Baha’u’llah’s teachings emerged from a Muslim culture and its mystical Sufi belief system, the Baha’i Faith and Islam have some similarities—they both believe in one God, in the validity and exalted station of the religions that came before, and in the sacred nature of the human soul. However, the Baha’i Faith differs significantly from Islam, especially as Islam is practiced today. Let’s take a look, in a general way, at those similarities and differences. First, the Baha’i teachings say that the “whole world” should “acknowledge the greatness of Muhammad and all the Heaven-sent Teachers:

So, as far as I know, and what we have above, Bahaie's do accept Mohammad as a prophet and accept Quran as a holy book, etc. They have my respect as individuals, but I have no respect for their ideas.
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,836
6
#62
Guys, please keep in mind that there are other things going on in people's lives other than this forum; plus it's only been 24 hours!!

At any rate, Keyvan jaan, I already gave an answer. The prime directive of this world is freedom to choose, even the choice to accept or deny God. If God directed everything then there would be no merit in anything we do. There may be worlds like that where we grow spiritually based on God's mercy alone, but that world is not this one. In this world we grow based on our own actions and their merit. The same way that you correctly take issue with some and say that there is no savior who is going to come and fix everything, but we have to do it; I'm afraid the same applies here. We grow based on our actions, and so do others. Unfortunately one becomes an oppressive tyrant, and one becomes a cause of fellowship and unity; all is within our grasp. Of course God will deal with both to punish or reward them in His own way and time, spiritually (not zeros in their bank account)! I hope it clarifies the issue. This is what Baha'i faith teaches. Those that confess their faith to Baha'ullah know this and have accepted it. Baha'is become Baha'is not to reach salvation or improve their own lives, rather to improve the lives of all people.

Ardesheer jaan (love that name by the way!), of course Baha'is accept Muhammad to have been a messenger of God, and Quran the holy book that he brought for that time and its challenges, as they do with Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Krishna and Buddha. However, Baha'is are not Muslims, or a branch of it. They accept and honor each messenger of God in the context of his time. They do not practice, nor condone or accept many Islamic social teachings as they have been abrogated by Bábi teachings and again by Baha'u'llah who adopted some of the Bábi teachings and changed others. Baha'is believe that all revelations (religions) are like various chapters of one divine book; they are all related but also independent. They are like lamps that carry the divine light in them for a period. With time the light is transferred from one lamp to the next. We must be followers of the light not the lamp.

At the same time, to judge Islamic teachings by today's standards is as wrong as trying to still practice them, because they were not meant to endure beyond the next revelation. No revelation, including the Baha'i faith, is forever. Religious truths are relative not absolute. The only absolute truth according to Baha'i teachings is God Himself, all other things, including religious truths are relative and temporary because they have been brought for humanity. As humanity grows and evolves, so too its needs for spiritual education. We can debate forever about Islamic teachings and their benefit, but when one believes that Islamic laws have been abrogated and no longer applicable to our time and its challenges, there is no point. This was one of the many religious truths that the Báb elucidated, the end of Days or Qiamat, He mentioned that it simply was the end of one dispensation and the coming of a new manifestation and dispensation by Whose teachings the spiritually dead would be resurrected and their faith renewed. I hope it is clear, but I am happy to elaborate further if you wish.
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#63
Guys, please keep in mind that there are other things going on in people's lives other than this forum; plus it's only been 24 hours!!

Ardesheer jaan (love that name by the way!), of course Baha'is accept Muhammad to have been a messenger of God, and Quran the holy book that he brought for that time and its challenges, as they do with Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Krishna and Buddha. However, Baha'is are not Muslims, or a branch of it. They accept and honor each messenger of God in the context of his time. They do not practice, nor condone or accept many Islamic social teachings as they have been abrogated by Bábi teachings and again by Baha'u'llah who adopted some of the Bábi teachings and changed others. Baha'is believe that all revelations (religions) are like various chapters of one divine book; they are all related but also independent. They are like lamps that carry the divine light in them for a period. With time the light is transferred from one lamp to the next. We must be followers of the light not the lamp.

At the same time, to judge Islamic teachings by today's standards is as wrong as trying to still practice them, because they were not meant to endure beyond the next revelation. No revelation, including the Baha'i faith, is forever. Religious truths are relative not absolute. The only absolute truth according to Baha'i teachings is God Himself, all other things, including religious truths are relative and temporary because they have been brought for humanity. As humanity grows and evolves, so too its needs for spiritual education. We can debate forever about Islamic teachings and their benefit, but when one believes that Islamic laws have been abrogated and no longer applicable to our time and its challenges, there is no point. This was one of the many religious truths that the Báb elucidated, the end of Days or Qiamat, He mentioned that it simply was the end of one dispensation and the coming of a new manifestation and dispensation by Whose teachings the spiritually dead would be resurrected and their faith renewed. I hope it is clear, but I am happy to elaborate further if you wish.
I know Baha'is are not Muslims. Same as Muslims not being Christians but accepting Jesus and Moses. My point is that I do not accept the proposition that Mohammad was a good person at all. It has nothing to do with the time e was living in. Murder was not acceptable at the time of Mohammad, and many other things that he did, let alone the fact that you should expect more from a person who claims to be a messenger of God, rather than justifying his actions for his time. How come others at his time and place were more civil than him? I just wanted it to make clear that, and I understand you agree 100%, Bahai's believe that Mohammad was a prophet, and Quran is the word of God. If this were not the case, I might have looked at Bahai religion for more info, but it will be a waste of time, since it has a fundamental issue in my eyes for the reasons above.
 
May 21, 2003
19,733
97
Not The Eshaalic Goozpublic !
#64
I know Baha'is are not Muslims. Same as Muslims not being Christians but accepting Jesus and Moses. My point is that I do not accept the proposition that Mohammad was a good person at all. It has nothing to do with the time e was living in. Murder was not acceptable at the time of Mohammad, and many other things that he did, let alone the fact that you should expect more from a person who claims to be a messenger of God, rather than justifying his actions for his time. How come others at his time and place were more civil than him? I just wanted it to make clear that, and I understand you agree 100%, Bahai's believe that Mohammad was a prophet, and Quran is the word of God. If this were not the case, I might have looked at Bahai religion for more info, but it will be a waste of time, since it has a fundamental issue in my eyes for the reasons above.
asan mohammad was a beautiful, peaceful person.
didn't he say to submit to allah. that makes him a delusional good person. he thrived to create more slaves (by more i mean to add to the ranks of already slaved christians and jews before the new recruits of heaven).

plain slavery, with shackled, masters and plantations.

I wonder if Iranians have a case of suing ISLAM in the international court in the Hague. If jews can get money out of Germany for holocaust why can't Iranians get money out of KINGDOM OF HEYVOON ARABIA for islam (Iranian holocaust)
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,836
6
#65
I know Baha'is are not Muslims. Same as Muslims not being Christians but accepting Jesus and Moses. My point is that I do not accept the proposition that Mohammad was a good person at all. It has nothing to do with the time e was living in. Murder was not acceptable at the time of Mohammad, and many other things that he did, let alone the fact that you should expect more from a person who claims to be a messenger of God, rather than justifying his actions for his time. How come others at his time and place were more civil than him? I just wanted it to make clear that, and I understand you agree 100%, Bahai's believe that Mohammad was a prophet, and Quran is the word of God. If this were not the case, I might have looked at Bahai religion for more info, but it will be a waste of time, since it has a fundamental issue in my eyes for the reasons above.
Ardesheer jaan, I understand your point and it's not the first time I've heard it. To be honest, I had to reflect on your point before I could make comments on it. I do agree with you that Iranians and others in the area of different beliefs were wronged. Even to this day the mere notion of mentioning this is likely to garner some ill will from some people. Many have issues with Islam or their treatment by Muslims, but come to accept it in the context of its time through Baha'i writings and teachings. They choose to focus on the future as opposed to the past. Some recognition of these facts are needed to help heal the historical wounds and divide. Perhaps the appearance of two manifestations in such close succession in Iran is a reconciliation in itself. At the same time, Iran was immersed in the dark abyss of dogma and superstition. The religious elite and royals lived in luxury and ease while people were oppressed and in the dark. These revelations freed them.

Also, keep in mind that accepting Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for today is a spiritual and personal journey that one must make by oneself. At the same time, one need not become a Baha'i to put its teachings and principles in practice. Baha'i teachings envision a federation of united countries under secular governance, with a world government, world tribunal to settle disputes among nations, one auxiliary language and script that all must learn in addition to their native tongue for better understanding and communication, all of which will unify and pacify the nations. This is possible if all acknowledge their oneness as one people, their interdependence which is becoming increasingly more evident every day through economics ties, environmental issues, and safety and security. One nation can no longer prosper alone while others languish in abject poverty. We are one and our fate is one. Baha'i teachings also tell us about our personal journeys and our contribution to that collective peace and prosperity, through universal education of girls and boys, equality of men and women, service to one another and considering work done in the spirit of service as worship to God, eliminating extremes of wealth and poverty, harmony of religion with science and logic, all of which will help us become world citizens not only tolerating but accepting one another. This is not only possible, but inevitable as we see forces of unity coalesce people together and we can all become agents of hope and progress and come together to build that future.
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
#66
I appreciate your respectful responses. I have no problem with some of the ideas that you/Bahia's have put forward. I think they are ideas that should be debated, discussed, modified, improved and may be implemented among goods ideas from others. However, my point is that these ideas should not be treated as being from God. These are ideas are just by another or other human beings. My problem with religions (including Bahai religion) is that they are all fake (with respect to Bhaie religion at least based on the fact that they believe Mohammad was a prophet,) and they believe their ideas are from God and the best ideas. The followers of these religions cannot accept any other ideas, because they think their ideas are from God. So, what's the point of having a debate with them, because they do not come with an open mind. Have you found any issues or problems with any ideas from your prophet? Any disagreements you have with them? Even a single one? Any verse of Quran or your holly book that you disagree with, even in the context of its own time? For example, when Quran says cut opposite arm and leg, and throw off the roof as punishment, any issue with that even for 1,400 years ago? Has Bahai religion changed Hell as described in Quran? What do you think about burning people in Hell, and then grow skin, and burn again. That's not in the context of time, but that's how Hell is described in Quran, and how could the next prophet change Hell?
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,836
6
#67
I appreciate your respectful responses. I have no problem with some of the ideas that you/Bahia's have put forward. I think they are ideas that should be debated, discussed, modified, improved and may be implemented among goods ideas from others. However, my point is that these ideas should not be treated as being from God. These are ideas are just by another or other human beings. My problem with religions (including Bahai religion) is that they are all fake (with respect to Bhaie religion at least based on the fact that they believe Mohammad was a prophet,) and they believe their ideas are from God and the best ideas. The followers of these religions cannot accept any other ideas, because they think their ideas are from God. So, what's the point of having a debate with them, because they do not come with an open mind. Have you found any issues or problems with any ideas from your prophet? Any disagreements you have with them? Even a single one? Any verse of Quran or your holly book that you disagree with, even in the context of its own time? For example, when Quran says cut opposite arm and leg, and throw off the roof as punishment, any issue with that even for 1,400 years ago? Has Bahai religion changed Hell as described in Quran? What do you think about burning people in Hell, and then grow skin, and burn again. That's not in the context of time, but that's how Hell is described in Quran, and how could the next prophet change Hell?
Ardesheer jaan,

You have raised some good questions and I share my understanding.

I do agree that there should be open forums for debates and discussions to determine the best solutions for the challenges of our time. Any group, ideology or individual can put forward their ideas into that debate and discussion and let the "spark of truth come forward from the clash of differing opinions." Although Baha'i teachings are divine from the perspective of Baha'is, others can weigh them against their logic and reason and accept them if they feel they apply to our challenges. For instance in Iran too, Baha'is want to be included in the national discourse and deliberation, as they are in the international community and involved in most social initiatives and programs.

I do have issues with many Islamic teachings and verses in the Quran, for instance use of force, punishment of infidels and apostates, the veil and treatment of women in general, the clergy, vilifying people of other beliefs, etc.; because I know they are out of date. Although spiritual core of all religions is the same, their social teachings and their understanding is different and evolves from one revelation to the next. As humans evolve, so too their capacity and understanding. That doesn't make previous teachings wrong or bad, but simply out of date. For instance, there comes a point in mathematics that 1+1=0, that doesn't make 1+1=2 wrong, rather obsolete if the discussion is binary system. Or if Microsoft sends a new version of Windows, it doesn't make previous versions wrong or sinister, rather out of date. At the same time, some of those old subroutines may still be part of the new program. The language is the same, the author is the same, etc.

And of course one must always introspect and investigate the truth for oneself in order to attain certitude about one's beliefs, otherwise it would become superstition and dogma. One should always keep an open mind and in the fairness of one's own heart weigh the evidence, be fair in judgement and guarded in one's speech and expression. One must also weigh one's own actions bearing in mind that Spiritual truths are the most hidden of the hidden and the most manifest of the manifest!

As for the notion of heaven and hell, in the old days it had to be explained in a way that would be possible for people of the time to understand. However, as I mentioned before it has been elucidated in the Baha'i faith to be a spiritual station not a physical place. This is due to maturity of humanity that is now capable of understanding such deep spiritual truths. Divine revelations come for spiritual education of humanity and therefore their truths are spiritual and not to be taken literally. Therefore, in the Baha'i concept, heaven is a high spiritual station of living in the good pleasure of our Creator, and hell is being spiritually far from Him. They are both spiritual stations not physical places. Likewise, Qiyamat (or resurrection) is not a one time event when all the dead get to walk the face of the earth again, rather it is meant to be the coming of a new Messenger of God whereby He quickens the spiritually dead and the spiritually blind through His teachings and precepts.

In previous dispensations these deep spiritual truths were often told by stories and parables that people could understand and relate to. They were not meant to endure forever, but only to the End of Days, which is the end of the time of one revelation and the coming of the next. God's creativity is endless and He will continue to guide and educate humanity forever as we evolve and our comprehension and challenges change. The relationship between the creator and His creatures is endless, it has no beginning and no end. There is not going to be any zombie attacks, no end of the planet scenario, life will go on, God's creation and creativity will go on forever. None of us are that special who's end will mean the end of humanity!
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,265
26
Las Vegas, NV
#68
Ardesheer jan, great name btw, I am not an expert on the Baha'i' faith like some other members here. To me organized religion, especially western religion is the same crap. The religious leaders, be it Judaism, Christianity or Islam, want your donations. I grew up in the west and secular so I do not respect organized western religion. However, I do not wish harm on someone who does, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
Last edited:
May 21, 2003
19,733
97
Not The Eshaalic Goozpublic !
#69
i absolutely see no point in respecting:
- a person
- an ideology
- philosophy
- country
- religion
- way of life
etc etc

when it is:
- fake
- fuzzy
- cloudy
- based on abuse of humans /animals
- based on enslavement
- based on 100% capitalism
etc etc

having said that, just because i don't respect them, that does not inherently mean i will go out to hurt them. if they get in my face, hinder my family's life, pester and bother my town or country then i will strive to wipe them off the face of the earth.

About bahai's reference to other religion,
i spoke to my mom last night and she told me when they were kids in Iran during religions studies which bahai's clearly try to DECEIVE people by calling 'dasr e akhlagh' they brainwashed her into believing and respecting:
moosa
jesus
and moo moo

all the same fucking crap:
- skull cap for joojoos
- crosses for crissies
- amaame or crescent for moo moos
and shaved face and kravat for bahais and esmailis

the core ideology, screw people over and get their money so some fat fuck somewhere can play with little girls or boys(in case of cathos) while idiots in churches and stuff jump around sing stupidities.

and where is god during all this ... festering and gallivanting through the universe like a fucking mental disease.
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,836
6
#70
TeamMeli,

Thanks for your contribution. Sorry I had some problems with my computer before and couldn't reply to your question. Of course respecting people for their beliefs, especially if peaceful, is necessary and not only is a reflection of our character, but also ensures civility and dialogue and discussion which in turn bring about illumination and progress. Respecting others is different from agreeing with them. We may not agree with some, but respecting every one for their beliefs is the cornerstone a civil society.

You had asked about the reason for opposition to the Baha'i faith, Baha'is understand the nature of this opposition to be a misconception that is usually propagated by the clergy with the birth of a new religion. So too is it with the Baha'i faith due to the nature of its progressive teachings that will loosen the grip of the clergy on power. It is ironic though that when Muslims correctly attribute the misconceptions about their faith to the Jewish and Christian clergy in the past, yet they too accept the same about the Baha'i faith from their clergy even after they have discovered the truth about them and their trust in their clergy is shaken. There is a deep prejudice breathed into people by the clergy that long after their faith is all but gone, yet that prejudice lingers on.

I'm happy to elaborate if you wish.
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,265
26
Las Vegas, NV
#71
TeamMeli,

Thanks for your contribution. Sorry I had some problems with my computer before and couldn't reply to your question. Of course respecting people for their beliefs, especially if peaceful, is necessary and not only is a reflection of our character, but also ensures civility and dialogue and discussion which in turn bring about illumination and progress. Respecting others is different from agreeing with them. We may not agree with some, but respecting every one for their beliefs is the cornerstone a civil society.

You had asked about the reason for opposition to the Baha'i faith, Baha'is understand the nature of this opposition to be a misconception that is usually propagated by the clergy with the birth of a new religion. So too is it with the Baha'i faith due to the nature of its progressive teachings that will loosen the grip of the clergy on power. It is ironic though that when Muslims correctly attribute the misconceptions about their faith to the Jewish and Christian clergy in the past, yet they too accept the same about the Baha'i faith from their clergy even after they have discovered the truth about them and their trust in their clergy is shaken. There is a deep prejudice breathed into people by the clergy that long after their faith is all but gone, yet that prejudice lingers on.

I'm happy to elaborate if you wish.
First of all great post and thank you for answering my questions but please elaborate some more. I was just about to point out Christianity because in my family, I have tons of Lutherans and Russian Orthodox. At the turn of the century and up to the point that Constantine accepted and adopted Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, Christianity was viewed as a CULT, kind of like how we view Mormons and Scientologists today. Of course today, Christianity is not viewed as a cult and religious leaders do not bad mouth Christianity, like the Pharisees did back in Jesus's day.
I want to get into the mindset of the Mullahs what kind of propaganda do they use to discredit the Baha'i faith. Is it the fact that the gentleman, the Baha'i leader mentioned he was the 12th Imam(don't know his name) or is it more than that and that is just an EXCUSE? Always, the culture or religion in power is going to impose their beliefs and value system. For example Turks understand Farsi but Persians don't understand Torki. Just like most Ukrainians know Russian but most Russians can't speak Ukrainian. I am starting to understand why there is this animosity and I also know that there have been problems, even dating back to Shah's time so this is not just an I.R Problem. I read horror stories of vandals desecrating Baha'i graves, again in Sha's time. Also, as you mentioned having respect for someone's beliefs is completely different than agreeing with them. Even not having respect for a particular religion itself is not bad, as long as you do not cause harm onto others who think differently than you.
I also believe that you are a product of your environment. Perhaps if I grew up in Iran I would have been a Muslim, if I grew up in Russia I would have been a Russian orthodox and if I grew up in Germany, I would have been a Lutheran. I bring up those countires because that is where my family is from. Not only I was born and raised in the USA, I was raised in So Cal, where people are very diverse, usually not religous and tolerant. I am telling you not all of America is like that. I was stationed in Mississippi and the blacks would have to go out to liberty with me or other whites because they were AFRAID, despite the fact that they were in the miltiary. You are going to see more churches than gas stations in the south. So it's not just what country you grew up in but what part and your familial influence. My parents were very much secular, therefore I grew up secular. Even when I went to a private religious university for grad school, by then I formed and shaped my ideology so they are not going to change me. I think you are a product of your environment.
 
May 21, 2003
19,733
97
Not The Eshaalic Goozpublic !
#72
mixture of conscience, ideology, way of life with the garbage of religion ...

in my view a big huuuuuuuuuuuge failure.

for our young guys, under the age of 40, due to the communication revolution (internet and all that) no matter where we grow up if we decide to follow any of the paralyzed religions it is what we have chosen and not what has been forced on us due to geography or culture.

I am sorry but if we say i am a catholic because i am italian is a sad excuse. to me it is like saying i am a dentist because my dad is a dentist ... really really sad.
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,836
6
#73
First of all great post and thank you for answering my questions but please elaborate some more. I was just about to point out Christianity because in my family, I have tons of Lutherans and Russian Orthodox. At the turn of the century and up to the point that Constantine accepted and adopted Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, Christianity was viewed as a CULT, kind of like how we view Mormons and Scientologists today. Of course today, Christianity is not viewed as a cult and religious leaders do not bad mouth Christianity, like the Pharisees did back in Jesus's day.
I want to get into the mindset of the Mullahs what kind of propaganda do they use to discredit the Baha'i faith. Is it the fact that the gentleman, the Baha'i leader mentioned he was the 12th Imam(don't know his name) or is it more than that and that is just an EXCUSE? Always, the culture or religion in power is going to impose their beliefs and value system. For example Turks understand Farsi but Persians don't understand Torki. Just like most Ukrainians know Russian but most Russians can't speak Ukrainian. I am starting to understand why there is this animosity and I also know that there have been problems, even dating back to Shah's time so this is not just an I.R Problem. I read horror stories of vandals desecrating Baha'i graves, again in Sha's time. Also, as you mentioned having respect for someone's beliefs is completely different than agreeing with them. Even not having respect for a particular religion itself is not bad, as long as you do not cause harm onto others who think differently than you.
I also believe that you are a product of your environment. Perhaps if I grew up in Iran I would have been a Muslim, if I grew up in Russia I would have been a Russian orthodox and if I grew up in Germany, I would have been a Lutheran. I bring up those countires because that is where my family is from. Not only I was born and raised in the USA, I was raised in So Cal, where people are very diverse, usually not religous and tolerant. I am telling you not all of America is like that. I was stationed in Mississippi and the blacks would have to go out to liberty with me or other whites because they were AFRAID, despite the fact that they were in the miltiary. You are going to see more churches than gas stations in the south. So it's not just what country you grew up in but what part and your familial influence. My parents were very much secular, therefore I grew up secular. Even when I went to a private religious university for grad school, by then I formed and shaped my ideology so they are not going to change me. I think you are a product of your environment.
TeamMeli,

Thanks for your contribution and questions and sharing your experiences.

You asked about the 12th Imam, and I share my understanding. First it needs to be said that this is the discussion of prophecies from previous scriptures and ideally one should judge each claim, in this case of Baha'u'llah, on its own merit and its applicability to the challenges of our time. At the same time, to some it may also be comforting and reassuring to find the connection in prophecies. The idea behind prophecies for the next appearance of a messenger is to highlight the continuity of God's creativity and revelation and also His part of the covenant that He will always guide us. It is also important to keep in mind that people of every belief wait the coming of a "promised one" and relate to Him by different names. In fact for our time, there is reference to "Twin Manifestations" that will appear in the "end of days" and build the long awaited "Kingdom of Earth" as it were on heaven. Again a symbol of the continuity of God's revelation and endless creativity. For instance in the Quran, there is a reference to the "double blast" of the trumpet which Baha'is believe to be the coming of the Báb and Baha'u'llah. So there is a reference to the 12th Imam, Qaem, Saheb-e-Zaman, who will appear with the return of Imam Husseyn in Shia Islam or Mahdi and return of Christ in Sunny Islam. Baha'is believe these to be the coming of the Báb and Baha'u'llah. There are other references to the coming of Baha'u'llah as the return of Christ in Christianity, Shah Bahram in Zoroastrianism, Fifth Buddha in Buddhism, and so on.

Baha'is believe that the Báb abrogated Islamic teachings and ended the Islamic cycle, and shortly after Baha'u'llah ended the Bábi dispensation while adopting many of the Báb's teachings and changing some. Baha'is believe that the change was so drastic that it needed the coming of the Báb to prepare the populace for a greater mission by Baha'u'llah.

The teachings of the Báb were quite progressive and revolutionary and attracted great numbers of the populations. Independent historians believe over 10% of Iran's populations accepted the new teachings in a few short years and in places like Tehran it was as many as a third of the population perhaps. Had it not been for the violent opposition of the clergy, the Báb's new faith had swept the nation. At the same time many clergy that were sincere accepted the Báb knowing it would end their grip on power and many even gave their lives for it. These teachings are the source of the opposition of the clergy with the new faith, especially when they see no place for themselves as the people of cloth in its future. Teachings such as independent investigation of the truth, equality of women and men, compulsory universal education, harmony of religion with science and logic, auxiliary universal language and script that everyone should learn in addition to their mother tongues for effective communication and unity, elimination of all forms of prejudice, elimination of professional clergy as everyone is capable of reading and understanding the scripture which is plentiful, importance of work and service to fellow beings, elimination of extreme poverty and wealth, unity of humankind in its diversity, secular governance and rule of law, unification and pacification of the human race with a world government, world tribunal and other related agencies. While there are teachings of personal spiritual growth for those that recognize Baha'u'llah as the manifestation of God for today, the whole world need not become Baha'i to adopt other teachings willingly. Of course this a short highlight. Feel free to ask questions if you wish.
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,265
26
Las Vegas, NV
#74
Thank you for elaborating and I just have a few questions about the time frame. You mentioned Báb had many progressive ideas, incorporated some of Baha'ullah's teachings, while omitting others. Approximately what time frame was this furthermore, did Bab' live after or take over Baha'ullah? This story is a common theme in western religion. In Christianity, there the book of Revelations and "The Rapture, which discusses the end of days. The main theme, without going over the entire book is when the angels and demons have a great battle, the righteous will assent into the Kingdom of Heaven, the wicked shall be left below. Southern Baptists preach this all the time one of the schools I went to talked about that non stop. The wicked shall be left below is in reference to The Rapture, which I am sure you heard of, that is the end of days. Of course you know about the Catholic/Orthodox split, the Protestant Reformation, Lutheranism, Evangelism, Mormonism to name a few major ones, all use the same source. The exception of that is church of L.D.S because of John Smith and I have family members in Utah who explain that interesting stuff to me.

It is interesting you mentioned 1/3 of Tehran was accepting and of course the clergy in Iran is going to make sure it does not sweep the nation. Many problems you mentioned not only affected Iran but other nations I am attached to that I mentioned before. On mother's tongue, that is why I am trying to learn German so I could communicate with her side of the family. As for my dad I know Persian but also enough Russian to talk to them so that is not an issue. I might not know Turki but it is not necessary, just a few words. Spanish, especially where I live is more important. Anyways, it is a good point you bring up about the similarities of different religions across the board. If people learn more languages and study different cultures, prejudices will disappear.
 
Last edited:

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,836
6
#75
Hello again TeamMeli,

Actually the Báb (pronounced Baab or in Persian باب ) was the forerunner and herald of Baha'u'llah; much like John the Baptist was to Christ. The difference being that John did not bring a new revelation whereas the Báb did and His revelation ended the era of Islam. He elucidated many religious allegories including some of what we discussed and one of them is "end of days" or "end days" an allegorical reference to the end of the era of one revelation and coming of the next. No doom and gloom as Hollywood portrays!

The Báb declared His mission in 1844 in Shiraz and as you can imagine was immediately persecuted and incarcerated and His followers also persecuted and many put to death in the most gruesome ways which are recorded in history. His ministry was short and only 6 years and in 1850 He was executed by a firing squad of 750 riflemen in Tabriz, Iran. His teachings live on in the Baha'i faith which is the faith of Baha'u'llah who was a Persian noblemen who gave all His possessions to help and educate the people. He declared His mission in 1863 in Baghdad while he was in exile. Although He had become aware of His station and mission while incarcerated in the Black Pit (Shiah Chal) in Tehran ten years earlier. He died in exile in 1892 in Akka, Palestine then, Israel today. Baha'u'llah's teachings envisioned a unified planet where people of all races, nationalities and languages are united together in a world federated government, speak and write one common language, have world agencies to run and world and settle the disputes among the nations; but are also sovereign in their domestic affairs with their own languages and cultures.

By the way, if you are interested in prophecy, particularly from Christian perspective, I wanted to recommend a book to you that is an interesting read and very engaging. It is called "Thief in the night" in reference to the return of Christ. It is written by William Sears who was an American investigative reporter who later joined the Baha'i faith through his research and was a very interesting and charming character; great speaker too. And he was such good story teller. The book was so interesting I almost read the whole book in one night! You can find it online here:
https://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
Let me know what you think of it.
 

TeamMeli

Legionnaire
Feb 5, 2014
7,265
26
Las Vegas, NV
#76
Very interesting information and thank you, you are right John the Baptist sas jus the forrunner or he was a deciple of Christ. He did not bring any new messages, prophecies, performed any miracles. He was John the Paptist who baptised Christ in the Jordan River. I will check this book out that you recommended, once I finish reading a few Orthodox book. One is the History of the Orthodox Church, written by Metropolitian Kallistos,aka Timmothy Ware. Sears has several books thief in the night, I saw one with just that title am almost done with that book and I need to read a few more but I will check it out. I have a question btw I saw several books with that title by him, one is 1973, one is 1990 let me give you the link to the amazon site i found, can you tell me which one if you click on the link? If I have anymore questions, I will be sure to ask but now I understand because again you are relating it to Christianity interesting, that is end days, that is just semantics end of days, end days. So please let me know which one is the right book, I will put it on my to do list. Keep in mind, I still need to also go over a few Tolstoy and Doestoyski books as well. I will get to that though and thank you for letting me know which one. Your boy has written more than one book. Also doost e khoob, do you recommend any good ZOROASTRIAN BOOKS, I am looking to beef up my knowledge about the faith. I read a very good 15 page article written by an anonymous writer but that just gives you the bullet points.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=%22Thief+in+the+night%22++William+Sears&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A%22Thief+in+the+night%22++William+Sears
 
Last edited:
May 9, 2004
14,800
91
#77
Hello again TeamMeli,

Actually the Báb (pronounced Baab or in Persian باب ) was the forerunner and herald of Baha'u'llah; much like John the Baptist was to Christ. The difference being that John did not bring a new revelation whereas the Báb did and His revelation ended the era of Islam. He elucidated many religious allegories including some of what we discussed and one of them is "end of days" or "end days" an allegorical reference to the end of the era of one revelation and coming of the next. No doom and gloom as Hollywood portrays!

The Báb declared His mission in 1844 in Shiraz and as you can imagine was immediately persecuted and incarcerated and His followers also persecuted and many put to death in the most gruesome ways which are recorded in history. His ministry was short and only 6 years and in 1850 He was executed by a firing squad of 750 riflemen in Tabriz, Iran. His teachings live on in the Baha'i faith which is the faith of Baha'u'llah who was a Persian noblemen who gave all His possessions to help and educate the people. He declared His mission in 1863 in Baghdad while he was in exile. Although He had become aware of His station and mission while incarcerated in the Black Pit (Shiah Chal) in Tehran ten years earlier. He died in exile in 1892 in Akka, Palestine then, Israel today. Baha'u'llah's teachings envisioned a unified planet where people of all races, nationalities and languages are united together in a world federated government, speak and write one common language, have world agencies to run and world and settle the disputes among the nations; but are also sovereign in their domestic affairs with their own languages and cultures.

By the way, if you are interested in prophecy, particularly from Christian perspective, I wanted to recommend a book to you that is an interesting read and very engaging. It is called "Thief in the night" in reference to the return of Christ. It is written by William Sears who was an American investigative reporter who later joined the Baha'i faith through his research and was a very interesting and charming character; great speaker too. And he was such good story teller. The book was so interesting I almost read the whole book in one night! You can find it online here:
https://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
Let me know what you think of it.
بابا ول کن کدوم ویزدام
کدوم پایان اسلام بدست باب و بهاالله
اصلا اسمی از بهاییت در مقابل اسلام امروز میبینی ؟
تو تمام دنیا بگردی به اندازه یک محله مسلمان نشین تو لندن بهایی پیدا نمیکنی انوقت تو میگی اند اوف اسلام
نگذار بیام و پته باب و بهاییت بریزم رو اب بزار ساکت بمونم عمو جان
 
May 9, 2004
14,800
91
#78
من چند سال پیش تو همین فوروم در این خصوص بهاییت و باب و تاریخ پیدایش باب
و بقیه جریانات مفصلا نوشتم
با مدارک و مصادر وقتی این ترید رو دیدم گفتم بیخیاش
ولی جناب میهن دوست کس و شعرهایی رو در مورد بهاییت و اسلامو ربط ان و نظر شخصی خودش رو اینجا پست کرد
که دیدم ساکت ماند مثل شخصی مثل من در اینمورد حکم تایید کردن گفته های ایشون را داره
به همین خاطر از الان در مورد تاریخ بهاییت مفصلا باز سر خودم و شما را درد می اورم و می نویسم
 
May 9, 2004
14,800
91
#79
قسمت یکم
معنی اسم باب و چرا سید علی محمد لقب باب به خود داد
باب کلمه ای عربی است به معنای در و در اینجا حدیثی از پیامبر است که می گوید انا مدینه العلم و علی بابها
یعنی من شهری از علم هستم و علی ابن ابیطالب باب است یعنی در ان شهر است
و کلمه باب در طول تاریخ برای این مطلب بیان میشده
و بعدها که ایین شیعه به اعتقاد به مهدی موعود داشته کسانی بوده اند که میگفتند که انها در ارتباط با مهدی هستند و باب نامیده میشده اند
یعنی دری بر اتصال با امام غایب
در اویل سید علی محمد همین ادعا را داشت که ایشان باب حضرت مهدی موعود هستند و لقب باب از همینجا امد
پس از اینکه عده ای از شیعیان که از روزگار و ستم حاکمان به ظلم امده بودند و روزنه امام موععود برای انها تنها چاره از گریختن از این بدبختی ها و فلاکت زدگی ها بود
به او گرویستند
که شرح چگونه تبدیل شدن سید علی محمد از باب مهدی موعود به خود مهدی موعود و بعد به تجلی از روح خدا و خدا شدنش و اعدامش
بیشتر به فیلمی کمدی همراه با تراژدی می ماند
و مفصل است که بیش از این
نمی نویسم
بعدها که قاجار دیدند که این باب امده و دارد دکان انها را به هم میزند او را گرفتند و در جلسه ای که بیشتر به یک فیلم کمدی می ماند او را محاکمه کردند
هر سئوالی از او میکنند در جواب در می ماند حتی کلمات را به غلط تلفظ میکند شخصی که ادعا دارد باب علوم مهد ی موعود است
بعد از او معجزه میخواهند میگوید معجزه من این است که دو هزار کلمه در روز می نویسم
که حضار به او میخنددن و میگویند در بین خط نویس های ما کسانی هستند که سه هزار می نویسند
یا میگویند چرا فلان ایه را غلط خواندی و خمس که یک پنجم ات را تبدیل به ثلث که یک سوم است کردی
باب در حواب میگوید یک پنجم هم مثل یک سوم است فرقی ندارد
که باز حاضران در جلسه می خندند و نظام العلما میگوید این مرتیکه دیوانه است
بعد به او میگویند چه علمی داری
باب میگوید علوم من خدایی است می گویند یکی را بیان کن
میگوید من باب علوم هستم !!!ا(واقعا مضحک است این جواب) ا
نظام لعلما رو به باب میکند و میگوید من ترا نفرستادم چگونه ادعای پیامبری میکنی ؟!!!
باب به نظام العلما میگوید مگر تو ادعای خدایی داری و خد هستی
نظام العلما میگوید پیامبری که مثل تو باشد خدایش بهتر از من نخواهد بود
خلاصه یک مشت مزخرافت مضحک که در اخر جلسه همه به دیوانگی ایشان متفق القول هستند
و جلسه از یک جلسه محاکمه به جلسه معالجه تبدیل میشود
البته قابل ذکر است که این گونه ادعاها دتقریبا درذ همه خاور میانه در زمان سلطه بریتانیا وجود داشته
از میرزا احمد و میرزا غلام خان قادیانی در هند گرفته که همین ادعا را در همان سالها میکند تا باب و محمد عبدالوهاب و دیگران که همه و همه تقریبا یک روش
را در پیش گرفته اند
البته باید بگویم در این میان شاید باب کمرنگرترین انها بود و نتوانست کسان زیادی را به مذهب خود داخل کند
مثلا میرزا غلام خان قادیانی ملیونها بلکه دها مللیون را به دین قادیانی گروانید
یا عبدالوهاب که تقریبا سیطرهای کامل بر حجاز داشت
یا اشخاص دیگری که در پاکستان امروزی . افغانستان و مصر توانستند صدها هزار را به خود جلب کنند
ولی شاید باب از همه انها کم شانستر بود یا بهتر بگویم حیله اش کمتر یا سواد کمتری داشت
امروزه می بینیم که مثلا پیروان احمدیه یا قادیانیه دها بلکه صدها بار بیشتر از پیروان باب و بهاییه است
همچنین باب که امده بود از پس او بهاالله که دین را جهانی کند از دین های کوچه و بازاری در هند کمتر پیروان دارد



 

Playboy

IPL Player
Oct 18, 2010
3,193
216
#80
racism in the 'healing balm' exposed from their own sources.
nothing artificial added.

[video=youtube;j5-6Rt6rXD8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5-6Rt6rXD8[/video]