on side note.
I think most of can predict that when we get engaged in threads like this, things likely go nowhere.
people (I included) keep rebuffing their arguments. ignoring questions asked and answering questions that we like to answer.
but hopefully these discussions can be a good building ground to a day when
we can physically sit face to face have discussions that are heated. but then go our merry ways to drinking and eating dinner together.
well at least nto be at each other's throats.
unfortunately it is rather sad even among we iranians abroad serious discourse often leads to sour moods.
This our country ours is so behind that it is so large and diverse that it requires a ton of discussion of variety of issues.
frankly things like which languages should be taught at school or means of tallying vote is going to probably have a whole lot more issues.
I think most of can predict that when we get engaged in threads like this, things likely go nowhere.
people (I included) keep rebuffing their arguments. ignoring questions asked and answering questions that we like to answer.
but hopefully these discussions can be a good building ground to a day when
we can physically sit face to face have discussions that are heated. but then go our merry ways to drinking and eating dinner together.
well at least nto be at each other's throats.
unfortunately it is rather sad even among we iranians abroad serious discourse often leads to sour moods.
This our country ours is so behind that it is so large and diverse that it requires a ton of discussion of variety of issues.
frankly things like which languages should be taught at school or means of tallying vote is going to probably have a whole lot more issues.
Hahahaha, No need to get so personal buddy.
Also, You could not be more wrong about me and my family and when we left Iran or when we planing to go back and ...
As far as support goes, I never support a movement that I know it is doomed to fail and is deeply flawed at its most basic ideologies, core and principles ...
Also, You could not be more wrong about me and my family and when we left Iran or when we planing to go back and ...
As far as support goes, I never support a movement that I know it is doomed to fail and is deeply flawed at its most basic ideologies, core and principles ...
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You are ignoarant of history of the revolution and are prejudiced towards a single point you have learned. All of the underlined section is incorrect. Was it Islamic chauvinism that led to Toudeh and Fadaian, the Godless commies to support Khomeini incomparably more staunchly than Bazargan ever did. Instead what it was, was a truly massive popular movement with the leadership of Khomeini the like of which the world has rarely ever seen that both emotionally and logically got everyone and their brother but a rare few to be in Khomeini's camp. Wrong on the second count. He is on the record otherwise. He is the one who pushed for striking "the government of Iran is a 12ers Shia" from the opening of the new constitution. Wrong on the last count. He is the one who wrote the piece that Islam is for the Hereafter and not for using to build a better world. There was even a thread on this on this forum.
I think you are getting too emotional and prejudiced, no? He would be good in directing a small charity organization? Was he not the head of the first engineering school at Tehran University at a very young age? Ask those who were students then on how capable he was. Was he not the head of Tehran's utilities when it formed? Wasn't he the head of Iran's oil company after nationalization? He was a highly intelligent individual, a head and shoulder over just about all Iranians and a capable manager.
I do agree that he was absolutly not suitable for being a prime minister after a revolution. I also agree that he should not have accepted the job and I agree that he may have not known his limitations, to be fair most of us do not know. I also believe that he was wrong in fighting the Shah despite Shah's dictatorship. Iran is brimming with ignorant and obash. Reza Shah had bottled them up and this was a great, great blessing for Iran
I do agree that he was absolutly not suitable for being a prime minister after a revolution. I also agree that he should not have accepted the job and I agree that he may have not known his limitations, to be fair most of us do not know. I also believe that he was wrong in fighting the Shah despite Shah's dictatorship. Iran is brimming with ignorant and obash. Reza Shah had bottled them up and this was a great, great blessing for Iran
That's a stupid argument. It's clear as day why Toudeh and Fadaian supported him. It was their only opening to power and their designs for Iran were anything BUT a secular democracy. Being irreligious does not preclude believing in a religious like ideology. I'm glad they never came to power, because the outcome would have been much worse.
You are talking about a man who left Jebhe Melli because he didn't think their core foundations were Islamic enough. It's obvious from his writings and speeches that Islam was his guiding principle behind his involvement in politics. He makes a point of emphasizing the role of religion in political decision making ensuring that justice and fairness prevails. I can see how that can appeal to you because you are a religious man. To me and others here it's complete nonsense. Our responsibilities are not derived from a divine source, and justice and fairness can only be ensured through rule of law, order and civility. It's exactly his kind of wishy washy way of thinking that lends itself to being hijacked and used by hardcore elements.
You are talking about a man who left Jebhe Melli because he didn't think their core foundations were Islamic enough. It's obvious from his writings and speeches that Islam was his guiding principle behind his involvement in politics. He makes a point of emphasizing the role of religion in political decision making ensuring that justice and fairness prevails. I can see how that can appeal to you because you are a religious man. To me and others here it's complete nonsense. Our responsibilities are not derived from a divine source, and justice and fairness can only be ensured through rule of law, order and civility. It's exactly his kind of wishy washy way of thinking that lends itself to being hijacked and used by hardcore elements.
Like I said you are ignorant of the history of the revolution and really, really ignorant of what Bazargan stood for and are prejudiced towards a single point. I am certain that you have not read much of what Bazargan wrote.
As for my religious beliefs it is very different than Bazargans. I am not sympathetic to Bazargan because we share similar beliefs. I dislike falsehood, prejudice, and ignorance though, as is the case of yours on this issue.
As for my religious beliefs it is very different than Bazargans. I am not sympathetic to Bazargan because we share similar beliefs. I dislike falsehood, prejudice, and ignorance though, as is the case of yours on this issue.
Yes I am absolutely prejudiced towards that point because it's a very important point. Islamic chauvinism is very real and very dangerous. It just so happens that you as a religious man are sensitive to that point and your are taking it personally. I have read enough about Bazargan to know what he stood for and I did not like it one bit. And yes most of the gibberish he wrote about Islam does not interest me one bit so I confess to not reading them. I have read enough to know his beliefs about how religion and politics should coincide are similar to those of a(for example) Rick Santorum. Rick is most notably known for being complete idiot, so I make to apologies for thinking the man you idolize is also an idiot.
Saeid jAn,
We won't have a as you put it "islam free" Iran, it is impossible at least for the next 3 or 4 centuries and quite frankly I don't advocate or wish for it. I like millions of other Iranians like islam to remain where it belongs, in the hearts, mosques and other places of worship and do not intervene in state affair.
As for packing and going back, I always ask god (who ever that is) to let me live 1 single day longer than IRR, it will be a day far more meaningful than my entire life.
We won't have a as you put it "islam free" Iran, it is impossible at least for the next 3 or 4 centuries and quite frankly I don't advocate or wish for it. I like millions of other Iranians like islam to remain where it belongs, in the hearts, mosques and other places of worship and do not intervene in state affair.
As for packing and going back, I always ask god (who ever that is) to let me live 1 single day longer than IRR, it will be a day far more meaningful than my entire life.
F.P jAn,
I know one of his students, his name was Mohammad Ali Rajaei, a harmlessl pious muslim who was not capable of running an ant farm, also decided to be the premier and later on the president of Iran. I get emotional b/c can not believe how shafted we got by these delusional individuals.
And Bazargan being head of NIOC did not matter much, entire infrastructure was shut down for whole duration and there was not a drop of oil being exported, so we can't really gauge the guy's management skills.
I know one of his students, his name was Mohammad Ali Rajaei, a harmlessl pious muslim who was not capable of running an ant farm, also decided to be the premier and later on the president of Iran. I get emotional b/c can not believe how shafted we got by these delusional individuals.
And Bazargan being head of NIOC did not matter much, entire infrastructure was shut down for whole duration and there was not a drop of oil being exported, so we can't really gauge the guy's management skills.
Unlike you rasul I want Islam to fly from the heart of every Iranian to what every place exept Iran but can we stand infront of a family member say grand mom and talk against Islam?
Many muslems are good people and still don't know Islam indetail but believe in it. Bazargan was a good muslem. I know he would never arrest and kill people the same way as likes of Khamenei. But he was controlled and suddenly he demonstrated this in the parliament. That is why I respect him.
Enough on this. Happy nooruz
Many muslems are good people and still don't know Islam indetail but believe in it. Bazargan was a good muslem. I know he would never arrest and kill people the same way as likes of Khamenei. But he was controlled and suddenly he demonstrated this in the parliament. That is why I respect him.
Enough on this. Happy nooruz
Rasoul JAn, Rajaie was not a graduate of Daneshkadeh Fanni. Rajaie was a teacher and a graduate of Tarbiat Moalem. Daneshkadeh Fanni was and still is a premier technical school in Iran, I do not know why you think Rajaie was Bazargan's student. Manesh een do nafar baham az zameen to assemoon fargh mikard; two totally different personalities.
The NIOC might have not been exporting oil in those days nevertheless, it was the biggest company in the middle east if not in the world and still operational. NIOC was the largest employer in Khuzestan if not in Iran. NIOC job was not solely export; it is a huge organization with different divisions and operations. no Iranian ever managed it before to my knowledge, or was promoted to a top spot. Yet he was picked by Mossadegh to be in charge of NIOC; do you think if Mossadegh had a better manager in Iran he would have hesitated to pick someone else? The fact was we did not have a whole lot of technocrat back then.
One point is clear to me, right after the revolution, nobody could run Iran smoothly, absolutely no one. Onn rooza sang ro sang band nemishood, let's not forget that. . Bazargan tried his best in those chaotic days, once determined he could not continue, he resigned.
The NIOC might have not been exporting oil in those days nevertheless, it was the biggest company in the middle east if not in the world and still operational. NIOC was the largest employer in Khuzestan if not in Iran. NIOC job was not solely export; it is a huge organization with different divisions and operations. no Iranian ever managed it before to my knowledge, or was promoted to a top spot. Yet he was picked by Mossadegh to be in charge of NIOC; do you think if Mossadegh had a better manager in Iran he would have hesitated to pick someone else? The fact was we did not have a whole lot of technocrat back then.
One point is clear to me, right after the revolution, nobody could run Iran smoothly, absolutely no one. Onn rooza sang ro sang band nemishood, let's not forget that. . Bazargan tried his best in those chaotic days, once determined he could not continue, he resigned.
The path for secularization was set 100 years ago but it did not last long. Less than decade after inception of Constitutional Monarchy the akhounds and their islamist minions (who some Iranian conveniently ignore their continues peril to our society) danger realized there was a lot for the to loose, they immediately mobilized and using their venomous influence in the society forced the nation to convert the young secular democracy from Constitutional Monarchy to Islamic Monarchy (Islamic Republic any one?) by amending the young constitution. I will copy and paste the 1st and 2nd amendment for you and all to see:
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2nd Majles Seyed Hassan Modarres was one of these 5 akhounds who were called "Mojtahed e Naazer". Below is what Modarres said when the legislation for universal suffrage which could provide voting rights to Iranian women was presented to maje\les by Reza Shah. Please read carefully:
Source
Source
2nd Majles Seyed Hassan Modarres was one of these 5 akhounds who were called "Mojtahed e Naazer". Below is what Modarres said when the legislation for universal suffrage which could provide voting rights to Iranian women was presented to maje\les by Reza Shah. Please read carefully:
Source