A Selection from "Resaleh" (Towzih ol Masael) Book of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini

Aug 26, 2009
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That really doesn't take away from the point - being that religion has no clue about what it is talking about and cannot prove it either way. It could be 3 days, and those days could be of any such length. But then explaining why it has to be 3 becomes a question it further cannot prove.

http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm


P.S. I got an exam in 5 days so...I probably shouldn't be here either LOL.
those verses, about 1000 years, or 50000 years are not about creation of the universe. those are about judgement day and the day of "returning" to god. I know from memory cause i have come across these before and did the research for my own understanding.

Anytime Quran talks about creation of universe the word "ayyam" is used, not "yowm". I can think of multiple ones just off memory... huwa lazi khalagha samavati val arza fi settati AYYAM, som mastava alal arsh (early surah yunus) for example. there is no time specified for these periods.

if you take it the ayyam to mean earth days, than its the wrong understanding. If you take it to mean as "periods" than its correct.

:D I keep saying "one more post" before I go back to reading and I keep posting! this forum is addictive.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
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Canada
That really doesn't take away from the point - being that religion has no clue about what it is talking about and cannot prove it either way. It could be 3 days, and those days could be of any such length. But then explaining why it has to be 3 becomes a question it further cannot prove.

http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm


So even in that, whether it is 6000-300000 years it is completely wrong.

P.S. I got an exam in 5 days so...I probably shouldn't be here either LOL.
Kazem jaan, you have to appreciate that you're referring to a text that was written almost 1400 years ago. I think the Quran shows a certain progression of thought to have changed the Biblical account of "days" to "periods". In a historical context, this simple fact makes the Quran "progressive" at least for that time and the people it was bestowed upon.

Even based on our scientific understanding of the universe, life in general and makind in particular were created over periods (i.e. they did not just come into being). I personally don't find the Quranic explanation of creation out of line from our most advanced understanding of the universe - taken in a historical context and keeping in mind the limitations imposed by words and people's understanding of their surroundings at that time.
 
Aug 26, 2005
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Ayyam means "days" or "long periods". The muslims confuse this to mean that Islam is right. I even allowed for the lofty definitions within the Quran to show what a day is in god's eye or the different lengths it is given in the Quaran and they do not get close to a million years, let alone the widely accepted figure of 4.5+ billion years. As confusing as that is, it's not even scratching the surface with regards to my problems with this and other religions.

I mean it should not even need saying; not defining a length of time is of use to who? 6 periods of which each mean an unquantifiable period of time? So what stops it from being 3? What stops me from saying there were 100 long periods and not being right? See what I mean, absolutely no accuracy or way to verify.
 
Aug 26, 2005
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Kazem jaan, you have to appreciate that you're referring to a text that was written almost 1400 years ago. I think the Quran shows a certain progression of thought to have changed the Biblical account of "days" to "periods". In a historical context, this simple fact makes the Quran "progressive" at least for that time and the people it was bestowed upon.

Even based on our scientific understanding of the universe, life in general and makind in particular were created over periods (i.e. they did not just come into being). I personally don't find the Quranic explanation of creation out of line from our most advanced understanding of the universe - taken in a historical context and keeping in mind the limitations imposed by words and people's understanding of their surroundings at that time.
Abbas jan, we are talking about the Quran, the WORD of god. There is NO progression. It is ABSOLUTE knowledge coming from him. It's like saying God made a mistake in the bible, but was getting it right in the Quran. God doesn't make mistakes apparently, is all knowing and powerful...yet we have to make concessions here? It makes no sense.

And unlike yourself, I don't buy the Arabic twists to define the words into meaning what they probably aren't just in order to have a vestige of connection with what modern science proves. The Quran is just an extension to the other Abrahamic religions, using mostly the same old stories, etc.
 
Aug 26, 2009
469
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Ayyam means "days" or "long periods". The muslims confuse this to mean that Islam is right. I even allowed for the lofty definitions within the Quran to show what a day is in god's eye or the different lengths it is given in the Quaran and they do not get close to a million years, let alone the widely accepted figure of 4.5+ billion years. As confusing as that is, it's not even scratching the surface with regards to my problems with this and other religions.

I mean it should not even need saying; not defining a length of time is of use to who? 6 periods of which each mean an unquantifiable period of time? So what stops it from being 3? What stops me from saying there were 100 long periods and not being right? See what I mean, absolutely no accuracy or way to verify.
Why cant a period be billions of years?

Recently I was watching TV (gosh, if I could remember what channel, I think proram was called Nova) the programme was about creation of universe... The programme was interviewing experts in the field all from well known universities...
they gave the stages for the creation of universe... can you guess how many stages?

I will look to see if I can find the reference.
 
Aug 26, 2009
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And unlike yourself, I don't buy the Arabic twists to define the words into meaning what they probably aren't just in order to have a vestige of connection with what modern science proves. The Quran is just an extension to the other Abrahamic religions, using mostly the same old stories, etc.
Kazem jaan,
What "twists"? this is literal arabic my friend. Ayyam means days, period, eons, epochs... its just fact.

8:31 And whenever Our messages were conveyed to them, they would say, "We have heard [all this] before; if we wanted, we could certainly compose sayings like these [ourselves]: they are nothing but fables of ancient times!"
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
Abbas jan, we are talking about the Quran, the WORD of god. There is NO progression. It is ABSOLUTE knowledge coming from him. It's like saying God made a mistake in the bible, but was getting it right in the Quran. God doesn't make mistakes apparently, is all knowing and powerful...yet we have to make concessions here? It makes no sense.

And unlike yourself, I don't buy the Arabic twists to define the words into meaning what they probably aren't just in order to have a vestige of connection with what modern science proves. The Quran is just an extension to the other Abrahamic religions, using mostly the same old stories, etc.
Of course we don't have to make concessions Kazem jaan, but I think we'll be hard pressed to argue that the Quran is not a book at least containing words "of" God (i.e. speaking of God), even if we're skeptical of, or strongly opposed to, it being the Words of God (i.e. words from God). There's no question (to the religous or the agnostic) that all Abrahamic texts including the Quran were written by mankind and none of their content was delivered by God, but through a tertiary medium at best, which in itself has been defined throughout the texts as being an imperfect being and often capable of deception.

With that said, can we not look at the Quran with no more or nore less prejudice than any ancient philosophical text and instead of using semantics to argue against semantics ;) take it at face value, appreciating that in it which brings us (mankind) closes together and remaining skeptical about those parts that drive a wedge between us, rather than dismissing or accepting the entire line of thinking of billions of people and their ancestors? That's a rhetorical question as far as I'm concerned and I'm just posing the question for you to think about it. not to conceed in any way.
 
Aug 26, 2005
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Kazem jaan,
What "twists"? this is literal arabic my friend. Ayyam means days, period, eons, epochs... its just fact.

8:31 And whenever Our messages were conveyed to them, they would say, "We have heard [all this] before; if we wanted, we could certainly compose sayings like these [ourselves]: they are nothing but fables of ancient times!"
Why cant a period be billions of years?



Recently I was watching TV (gosh, if I could remember what channel, I think proram was called Nova) the programme was about creation of universe... The programme was interviewing experts in the field all from well known universities...

they gave the stages for the creation of universe... can you guess how many stages?



I will look to see if I can find the reference.

Days and eons are completely different time periods, are they not? The story is gotten from the other abrahamic religions which used the literal "day". Now we are asked to interprete it meaning as eons rather than days.

Anyway, as I already mentioned, aside from that fact, if it meant as an undetermined time it's useless in terms of actually measuring time or knowing anything about the creation of our world. Which in terms of equating with science makes it, frankly, laughable.

In terms of it being philosphy, even in that respect I'd think it pretty weak. And none of these books were promoted as philosophy but as strict rules to live ones life with. They were beliefs held, strong enough to go to war with. IMO, they are unnecessary fables.
 
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Aug 26, 2005
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Of course we don't have to make concessions Kazem jaan, but I think we'll be hard pressed to argue that the Quran is not a book at least containing words "of" God (i.e. speaking of God), even if we're skeptical of, or strongly opposed to, it being the Words of God (i.e. words from God). There's no question (to the religous or the agnostic) that all Abrahamic texts including the Quran were written by mankind and none of their content was delivered by God, but through a tertiary medium at best, which in itself has been defined throughout the texts as being an imperfect being and often capable of deception.
With that said, can we not look at the Quran with no more or nore less prejudice than any ancient philosophical text and instead of using semantics to argue against semantics take it at face value, appreciating that in it which brings us (mankind) closes together and remaining skeptical about those parts that drive a wedge between us, rather than dismissing or accepting the entire line of thinking of billions of people and their ancestors? That's a rhetorical question as far as I'm concerned and I'm just posing the question for you to think about it. not to conceed in any way.
Even arguing that God is fallible enough to have picked a tertiary medium is fallacious. This is not like the Bible where witnesses merely wrote accounts they saw or know of. These were god's words through Muhammad. In fact, such a fact was purported to be why Islam was the most valid of these religions, now we must consider it also flawed because it doesn't stand up to stringent critique?

I, and I believe many others, simply do not take anything claiming to be from the creator or any laws it purports are for our good use lightly or merely philosphical. If they were merely philosophical, they wouldn't have been held by the strength of sword or rope. People weren't killed as witches merely because of philosophy nor do they bend down a few times a day in a certain direction and pray for their philosophical good.

And aside from that, philosphically, I consider it dangerous. Which is why I consider religion dangerous utlimately. People can use it for bad means and twist that philosophy - and I say twist here for the sake of another argument where those that "twist" it are saying their interpretation is the true interpretation.
 
Aug 26, 2009
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Days and eons are completely different time periods, are they not? The story is gotten from the other abrahamic religions which used the literal "day". Now we are asked to interprete it meaning as eons rather than days..
age gozashti man darsamo bekhoonam! :D
day and eon are two seperate things, who is debating that? I am saying Quran uses the word Ayyam, which could also mean eons, so its not necessary "earth day" as you said.

Anyway, as I already mentioned, aside from that fact, if it meant as an undetermined time it's useless in terms of actually measuring time or knowing anything about the creation of our world. Which in terms of equating with science makes it, frankly, laughable.
what does undermined amount of time have to do with anything? no quran does not say universe is X many years old, it simply says it was created in Six stages. If science establishes that universe was established in the same number of phases (singularity, burst, gas formation, etc, etc) than you would have to agree, there is something to our assertions. If science tells you there are X number of stages in creation of universe, and that X agrees with what Quran says, that is laughable to you?

In terms of it being philosphy, even in that respect I'd think it pretty weak. And none of these books were promoted as philosophy but as strict rules to live ones life with. They were beliefs held, strong enough to go to war with. IMO, they are unnecessary fables.
you don't think religion is a philosophy, has a philosophy? well than. I guess I would have to strongly disagree.
 
Aug 26, 2005
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age gozashti man darsamo bekhoonam! :D
day and eon are two seperate things, who is debating that? I am saying Quran uses the word Ayyam, which could also mean eons, so its not necessary "earth day" as you said.
Azizam, it seems you skipped the rest of my post.

Bible: The world was created in 6 days.
Quran: The world was created in 6 days.

Ayyam can mean longer time, as it can also mean days, but the point was the origin of the story which muslims got it from...was meant as the literal day.

what does undermined amount of time have to do with anything? no quran does not say universe is X many years old, it simply says it was created in Six stages. If science establishes that universe was established in the same number of phases (singularity, burst, gas formation, etc, etc) than you would have to agree, there is something to our assertions. If science tells you there are X number of stages in creation of universe, and that X agrees with what Quran says, that is laughable to you?
It means that the period put is not really defined. Which means looking into the Quran for answers is useless. Whether it is 6 stages or 4 makes no difference; it's proving the actual time in total that relates to everything else.

Science may prove it was made in 10 stages, and say there were 6 important parts and the religious will take that as proof. Even if Science were to say 6, and there were 6...it still isn't a valid reason to believe Quran. On the contrary, it's a reason to believe in science. Because asserting something by itself, without any reasoning, is not useful or enough. One has to prove it, or show a method of proving it.

you don't think religion is a philosophy, has a philosophy? well than. I guess I would have to strongly disagree.
No, I think religion is philosophical, but isn't meant to be taken as a mere philosophy. It was meant to be taken literally and seriously. Galileo wasn't killed because people merely took their religion as a philosophy.
 

Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
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Abbas jan, we are talking about the Quran, the WORD of god. There is NO progression. It is ABSOLUTE knowledge coming from him. It's like saying God made a mistake in the bible, but was getting it right in the Quran. God doesn't make mistakes apparently, is all knowing and powerful...yet we have to make concessions here? It makes no sense.
Well done dear, that's good reasoning! I understand that you are engaged in multi-directional debate and do not mean to distract you, but if you wish, there could also be another perhaps simpler explanation. You are correct that your reasoning breaks apart the arguments that portray the Word of God as absolute. It simply is not. In fact all truths in existence are relative and our understanding of them progressive.

God's education, as in human education, comes in progression and in accordance with our comprehension and challenges. A baby is taught how to sit, then crawl, walk, run, run a marathon, play complex sports in steps, so is humanity in general. As we go through school, we continue to gain a deeper knowledge into science, literature and life in general. Life has an evolutionary nature which is hard to deny, but evolution need not contradict previous learning, but complement it. In fact, humans are the only species that are capable of transferring their knowledge and learning through generations which is why we have evolved so much in comparison to say honey bees which have been living the same way, based on same instincts for a billion years.

To perceive any message of God to be His last and final, is in contradiction to His attributes such as All-knowing, All-wise,etc. How can all knowledge be transmitted in one message, as potent as it may have been? This is contradiction in terms. Other than God's own essence which is the only absolute entity, all truths are relative and evolutionary. This is evident in science as well. For instance until recently the existence of ether was widely accepted, but now has been rejected; apes were widely perceived as humans' ancestors, now it is being rejected. Science too is relative and the only undeniable truth about it, in fact about all things including religious truths, is that nothing is the undeniable truth; for our understanding and comprehension of them is in a state of flux and evolution.

Once we recognize the relativity of all truths, accepting past divine revelations, and scientific discoveries for what they were and in the context of their time and challenges becomes more reasonable. For instance, what benefit would it have been for humanity to know that earth was 4.5 billions years old at the time of Christ or Muhammad? They had much more immediate challenges. By your admission science did not even exist in the form that it does today. In time we may discover that their allusions to complex questions that have busied humanity forever, were also not wrong, were not simplistic, rather adequate for the people and challenges of the time.

Therefore one must judge each revelation of the Cause of God in the context and challenges of its own time. God tells us as much as we bear to hear, He teaches us as much as we can learn. His teaching is progressive, ongoing and never-ending. We should not be quick to dismiss the bygone times as primitive and crude, for our own shortcomings will seem primitive and crude for posterity. Instead, we should take comfort that we have been able to benefit from the learning of the past, hopefully make not the same mistakes, and strive to bequeath posterity with a learning which is valuable and worthy of these illumined days.

I applaud your inquisitive mind and critical thinking which will no doubt guide you through your life.
 
Jun 9, 2004
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Even arguing that God is fallible enough to have picked a tertiary medium is fallacious.
That is certainly not an argument I was making Kazem jaan, if you'd care to read my post again, without pre-assigning any particular direction to it.

This is not like the Bible where witnesses merely wrote accounts they saw or know of. These were god's words through Muhammad.
Actually, in the best case scenario, they were Gabriels words as best understood by Mohamad. How well Gabriel delivered the message from the source (if that is indeed the case), based on "his" understanding (being an imperfect being) is the subject of interpretation and open to debate (i.e. it is NOT absolute). You are viewing it to be absolute and then arguing that is shouldn't be. ;)

In fact, such a fact was purported to be why Islam was the most valid of these religions, now we must consider it also flawed because it doesn't stand up to stringent critique?
FP jaan has explained the difference between Islam (submission to God) and Islam (in the form a religion assigning undue value to entities other that God) quite a few times on this forum. I think he's a great person to discuss this particular issue with.

I, and I believe many others, simply do not take anything claiming to be from the creator or any laws it purports are for our good use lightly or merely philosphical. If they were merely philosophical, they wouldn't have been held by the strength of sword or rope. People weren't killed as witches merely because of philosophy nor do they bend down a few times a day in a certain direction and pray for their philosophical good.
With that line of thinking, are we saying then that PLato's Republik should be completely dismissed because of American invasion of Iraq?!

And aside from that, philosphically, I consider it dangerous. Which is why I consider religion dangerous utlimately. People can use it for bad means and twist that philosophy - and I say twist here for the sake of another argument where those that "twist" it are saying their interpretation is the true interpretation
The Quran is no more dangerous than The Republic and many other philosophical schools of thought or books written in the course of human history. The danger is in the nature of mankind, the insatiable appetitie of some for power and others to blindly follow - the name and pretence under which they do it, should not necessarily reflect nagatively on that belief system. For example, do we call Shamanism dangerous just because the Mongols caused the 2nd most devastating loss of human life on this planet?! Or do we do the same thing with Nationalism because of what Hitler did (most devastating loss of life)?! How about Communism (and the 3rd most devastating loss of life)?!

Although, we do tend to be more objective on these issues, when it comes to the Quran or Islam (as submission to God), we (Iranians) do tend to be very subjective and are willing to dismiss what our ancestors have believed in for thousands of years (i.e. the concept of a higher order in the universe), even before Islam, to try and oversimplify things for ourselves. But humanity is dynamic and its interaction within the species seldom can or should be over-simplified to that point.

On a different note, stop procrastinating and do your school-work! I don't want to be chasing you around the WWW to remind you! ;)
 
Aug 26, 2005
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I applaud your inquisitive mind and critical thinking which will no doubt guide you through your life.
Thanks for the compliment. But I must say, your post did not assuage any of my doubts. The assumption of what god would or would not do or how he would ration out "knowledge" does not belong in serious discussion IMO. For now, we are trying to think like god, whom which we are led to believe has infinitely more capacity to understand. Which in itself seems to suggest that god reasons or has to think about anything.

If god wanted to further mankind, he didn't have to give messages to an illiterate - who ironically jumped in his own knowledge and became literate - in hope that we'd interpret it properly. We are talking about god, all he'd have to do is accelerate our capacity to learn. God can turn water into wine but can't give you intelligence? It's just nonsensical even along those lines.
That is certainly not an argument I was making Kazem jaan, if you'd care to read my post again, without pre-assigning any particular direction to it.
What did you mean then Abbas jan? I thought you were saying that because god's mediums were flawed, they somehow have lost his message or caused it to be lost either directly or indirectly.

Actually, in the best case scenario, they were Gabriels words as best understood by Mohamad. How well Gabriel delivered the message from the source (if that is indeed the case), based on "his" understanding (being an imperfect being) is the subject of interpretation and open to debate (i.e. it is NOT absolute). You are viewing it to be absolute and then arguing that is shouldn't be. ;)
No, I am actually arguing that it is not absolute and that those saying it is not absolute - believers, non-believers - are retreating because God's words were meant to be taken as absolutes. History has a great many examples of people in centuries gone buy - closer to these prophets than you and I - who passed on their interpretations. Now suddenly in the 21st century we are revising what they meant because they don't seem to fit in with our newer sensibilities?

FP jaan has explained the difference between Islam (submission to God) and Islam (in the form a religion assigning undue value to entities other that God) quite a few times on this forum. I think he's a great person to discuss this particular issue with.
I am not sure what the above means or means to imply?

With that line of thinking, are we saying then that PLato's Republik should be completely dismissed because of American invasion of Iraq?!
What does one have to do with the other and how does that relate to religion?

The Quran is no more dangerous than The Republic and many other philosophical schools of thought or books written in the course of human history. The danger is in the nature of mankind, the insatiable appetitie of some for power and others to blindly follow - the name and pretence under which they do it, should not necessarily reflect nagatively on that belief system. For example, do we call Shamanism dangerous just because the Mongols caused the 2nd most devastating loss of human life on this planet?! Or do we do the same thing with Nationalism because of what Hitler did (most devastating loss of life)?! How about Communism (and the 3rd most devastating loss of life)?!
But there you are wrong. It is not a philosophical book nor a simple moral fable. It purports to be from god. It purports to tell you the right way to live your life. And it does all this with weak justifications and poor standards of proof - you may even call it truth.

The fact that it relies on faith and interpretation is it's very danger. Because people act favorably, and in a lot of cases otherwise, based on the belief that the highest power in the universe backs their cause.

If the teachings were merely important in themselves, then their would be no need for it to come from some omnipotent being. It could come from man, it could have been taught by man. But religion always instigates a higher power to persuade it's followers. For that reason alone it can be very dangerous. Furthermore, who is to say that those whom go around killing etc, are wrong in their interpretation and faith? Other men? Who are just as fallible? The only infallible being is nowhere to be found, so there is no way we can know; and that's the other side of the coin which makes it equally dangerous to believe and follow something you cannot even communicate with.

Although, we do tend to be more objective on these issues, when it comes to the Quran or Islam (as submission to God), we (Iranians) do tend to be very subjective and are willing to dismiss what our ancestors have believed in for thousands of years (i.e. the concept of a higher order in the universe), even before Islam, to try and oversimplify things for ourselves. But humanity is dynamic and its interaction within the species seldom can or should be over-simplified to that point.

On a different note, stop procrastinating and do your school-work! I don't want to be chasing you around the WWW to remind you! ;)
I am gonna start tomorrow, I promise! Actually mate, I've been studying all day. I swear to god ;).
 
Feb 22, 2005
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I will question any philosophy where:
1. Its creator, god in this case, demands worshipping and uses fear to enforce it. Does an all powerful god needs worshipping? In humans we know that comes from inferiority complex. But with god?
2. Where its creator is punisher and a torturer who uses the fire of hell to burn them.
3. Where its creator demands that I live by the book he had produced 1400 years ago, although most of it does not make sense today. Then he gives me brain where much of it does not make sense but yet demands I follow it anyway or end up in hell.
4. Where he has older editions published by different people and demands now following the new guy on the other side of the planet. So, all these other people will go to hell? Even ones in distant parts who never heard of Islam and died?
5. If he says to accept the people of the other 2 religions, why should we take his new version where others are enjoying life living with far less strict life and much higher quality (europe, not america) and will end up in the same place. Or is it that he likes middle eastern, iranian, arabs far better and that is why he produced his version to them. They seem to have a way higher chance of getting into heaven as they practice the newer version.
6. If this powerful god did not want to write an absolute book, although, his rules in the book are absolute, yet the universe he created is not, why did he write a book that is open to interpretation, yet he has so many rules in there about going to hell if you don't do it his way.
7. Does this most powerful god, really needs us to have to listen to other human beings or human being to get his message. Obviously, the ones after Muhammad felt that Ali or others can carry his message and be his representer. Could he have at least not write in his book in Bold, dont listen to anyone but this book. But then again, he wrote a book that his people needed the prophet to interpret it all the time. And at prophet's death when there was not one to interpret it, it became chaotic and a chaos which has follow it up to today.
8. He had problem number 7 with his other 2 books too. People living in chaos, and killing for him, calling people witches and killing them, etc.. How come other philosophies talk of love, and this book of god has so much talk of love, hate and punishment in it.
9. And once you accept and join this religion, don't leave it, as you will burn in hell. If it is so great, why did god have to put in punishment for leaving this religion?
10. Why the powerful god could not give equal status to men and women, and it took powerful men of the west to bring that upon us. Though, there is rumors that Persian empire had some of it before it was taken away by the religion, way before the men of west. Could he have at least not set a path for right of women? Instead of representing them as ones to serve men? That is why majority of the men of his religion in the 21st century still treat women as unequal. Because they want to live by his rules.
 

Ardesheer

Bench Warmer
Jun 30, 2005
1,580
1
I will question any philosophy where:
1. Its creator, god in this case, demands worshipping and uses fear to enforce it. Does an all powerful god needs worshipping? In humans we know that comes from inferiority complex. But with god?
2. Where its creator is punisher and a torturer who uses the fire of hell to burn them.
3. Where its creator demands that I live by the book he had produced 1400 years ago, although most of it does not make sense today. Then he gives me brain where much of it does not make sense but yet demands I follow it anyway or end up in hell.
4. Where he has older editions published by different people and demands now following the new guy on the other side of the planet. So, all these other people will go to hell? Even ones in distant parts who never heard of Islam and died?
5. If he says to accept the people of the other 2 religions, why should we take his new version where others are enjoying life living with far less strict life and much higher quality (europe, not america) and will end up in the same place. Or is it that he likes middle eastern, iranian, arabs far better and that is why he produced his version to them. They seem to have a way higher chance of getting into heaven as they practice the newer version.
6. If this powerful god did not want to write an absolute book, although, his rules in the book are absolute, yet the universe he created is not, why did he write a book that is open to interpretation, yet he has so many rules in there about going to hell if you don't do it his way.
7. Does this most powerful god, really needs us to have to listen to other human beings or human being to get his message. Obviously, the ones after Muhammad felt that Ali or others can carry his message and be his representer. Could he have at least not write in his book in Bold, dont listen to anyone but this book. But then again, he wrote a book that his people needed the prophet to interpret it all the time. And at prophet's death when there was not one to interpret it, it became chaotic and a chaos which has follow it up to today.
8. He had problem number 7 with his other 2 books too. People living in chaos, and killing for him, calling people witches and killing them, etc.. How come other philosophies talk of love, and this book of god has so much talk of love, hate and punishment in it.
9. And once you accept and join this religion, don't leave it, as you will burn in hell. If it is so great, why did god have to put in punishment for leaving this religion?
10. Why the powerful god could not give equal status to men and women, and it took powerful men of the west to bring that upon us. Though, there is rumors that Persian empire had some of it before it was taken away by the religion, way before the men of west. Could he have at least not set a path for right of women? Instead of representing them as ones to serve men? That is why majority of the men of his religion in the 21st century still treat women as unequal. Because they want to live by his rules.
I hear you, my friend. Let me tell you their answers. People like us (I am assuming about you) do not read and understand Arabic. There is one way to read and interpret Quran, when it says 6 days, it mean six stages (how you define a stage, oh well); when it says women are treated differntly than men, different treatment does not mean that they are being treated unfairly; hell and heaven, burning and having running milk in heaven, this stuff is all metaphysics and we don't comprehend; when Quran says don't shout Mohammad's name behind his house, that means you should be polite; when Quran says Mohammad can have sex with cousins, it's because God did not want his cousins to be punished and not have that great opportunity; worship means loving God, not that put your head down and raise your butt. Rest assured there are answers to all your questions. The point is that you have to have faith, once you have faith, all your questions can be answered.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
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I hear you, my friend. Let me tell you their answers. People like us (I am assuming about you) do not read and understand Arabic. There is one way to read and interpret Quran, when it says 6 days, it mean six stages (how you define a stage, oh well); when it says women are treated differntly than men, different treatment does not mean that they are being treated unfairly; hell and heaven, burning and having running milk in heaven, this stuff is all metaphysics and we don't comprehend; when Quran says don't shout Mohammad's name behind his house, that means you should be polite; when Quran says Mohammad can have sex with cousins, it's because God did not want his cousins to be punished and not have that great opportunity; worship means loving God, not that put your head down and raise your butt. Rest assured there are answers to all your questions. The point is that you have to have faith, once you have faith, all your questions can be answered.
11. The all powerful god, the creator of the universe, why did he not present Koran in an all universal language so there are no misinterpretations when his people of other language can read it. And why did the people of other language had to wait for so long to have the same opportunity as others to the book of god?
 
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Aug 26, 2009
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Azizam, it seems you skipped the rest of my post.

Bible: The world was created in 6 days.
Quran: The world was created in 6 days.

Ayyam can mean longer time, as it can also mean days, but the point was the origin of the story which muslims got it from...was meant as the literal day.
Ok brother,

Ok. I disagree with the rest of the quote, but that is fine cause we just have different opinions. However, on the above statement you are mistaken.

Bible specifically says 6 earthly days and gives a detailed (yet inaccurate) version, and specifies Morning and Evening.

Quran does not specifically 6 earthly days and does not give a detailed account of each stage (which means it does not open itself to mistakes).

If Quran copied from the bible, it should have had the same mistakes and embelishments. Below is a detailed look at the bible, and the mistakes it makes, none of which are allowed in Quran (meaning, Quran did not "copy")

Mistakes that bible makes, which Quran avoids:
1) Morning and Evening, (1st day) before the creation of Earth (3rd day) and Sun/moon (4th day).
2)Creation of Vegetation (3rd day) , before Sun (4th day) is created (Vegetation cannot survive without light)
3)Creation of Seas (3rd day) before Sun (4th day) which means the waters would freeze over.
4)Creation of waters (1st day) before earth is created (3rd day)
5)On the 7th earthy day, God is tired and chills!

Bible:Genesis
1 In the beginning od created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Here is where the day counting starts:
Earthly Day 1, complete with Morning and Evening: Light
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Here is the first, earthly day, notice morning and evening)

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so

Earthly Day 2 : Heavens
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Earthly Day 3 : Earth, Sea and Vegetation
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day

Earthly Day 4 : Sun and Moon
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light (Sun) to rule the day, and the lesser light (Moon) to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day

Earthly Day 5 : Animals
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Earthly Day 6 : Human
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Earthly Day 7 : God is tired (!!!) and relaxes and is "refreshed" (!!!)
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Compare that to Quran's "6 ayyam" (days or stages) and you will see Quran does not make these inaccurate statements. And Quran says:

50:38 (Asad) and [who knows that] We have indeed created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in Six aeons, and [that] no weariness could ever touch Us.

50:38 (Y. Ali) We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.

Notice no "morning, evening" are mentioned - so these "Ayyam" are not the same as biblical earthly days.
And notice how Quran says "God does not get tired".

In light of these differences, I think to say or imply that Quran just "copied" from the bible is "bi-ensaafi". In actuality it is more like Quran correcting the bible!
 
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Meehandoost

Bench Warmer
Sep 4, 2005
1,982
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Thanks for the compliment. But I must say, your post did not assuage any of my doubts. The assumption of what god would or would not do or how he would ration out "knowledge" does not belong in serious discussion IMO. For now, we are trying to think like god, whom which we are led to believe has infinitely more capacity to understand. Which in itself seems to suggest that god reasons or has to think about anything.

If god wanted to further mankind, he didn't have to give messages to an illiterate - who ironically jumped in his own knowledge and became literate - in hope that we'd interpret it properly. We are talking about god, all he'd have to do is accelerate our capacity to learn. God can turn water into wine but can't give you intelligence? It's just nonsensical even along those lines.
You're right dear, creatures cannot possibly know the intentions of the creator. However, this is not so much about knowing the intentions of our creator, as it is to acknowledge a condition of our life which is of progressive learning and evolution. We can see the evidences of this quality in individuals' lives and humanity in general. At the same time, since creatures cannot possibly really know their creators, we relate to our Creator by His attributes, kind, loving, omnipotent, All-merciful, All wise, All-knowing, etc. The same way that all human knowledge cannot be taught to an individual at once but must be done progressively and in accordance with our age and understanding, the Creator too teaches us progressively and in step with our understanding. If all human knowledge, which is finite in comparison to the Creator's, cannot be taught at once, how can the knowledge of the Creator which is infinite be taught at once or assumed completed at certain point? Therefore, it is ongoing. This is not thinking like God, rather it is an acknowledgment of our life's condition. The Cause of God after all is for OUR benefit, education and progress and therefore reflects our realities, not His.

At the same time, you are saying that if our Creator wants to deepen our understanding of truths, and advance our lives and our civilization, He should not have done so through an illiterate man. Ironically, this in a way is thinking like God! You say rather He should have done so through increasing our capacity to learn. Ironically again dear, He must have, otherwise we would not be capable of such profound discussions to even doubt His very existence. This is the difference of these illumined days that we are truly "free" to even not accept our Creator. In the old days, such "heresy" would not be tolerated, not to mention that those whose minds are stuck in the old days are still not tolerant of such discussions.

I digress. At any rate, how our capacities and in turn learning are increased deserve some reflection. Few ways come to mind:
1. Traditions, which are gaining the experiences of past generations.
2. Intellection, which are the fruits of our mind and critical thinking.
3. Inspiration, which are received by apt souls who create magnificent artwork or make wonderful discoveries.
4. Revelations which unlock great potentialities and release lasting spiritual energies in the world.

A revelation however, is never just delivered by a carrier whose only role is to deliver the message. Rather they are brought by pure souls and spiritual teachers who become the repository of the Will of the Creator who then teach it laboriously to humanity. It takes sacrifice and time to teach a revelation to humanity which is resistant to change. Why does the Creator send His message through an illiterate man and not an erudite person? Neither is always the case, and there are examples of both, but it could be said that He is the Creator who "doeth what He willeth" and second, it is a condition of the soul of the messenger that matters and not his scholarly education or wealth.
 
Aug 26, 2005
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You're still making too many assumptions based on other assumptions. Essentially, building an argument on a premise that is based on another premise which is based on another premise of which all are held to be true merely because we have faith that they are true.

How do we know God has infinite knowledge? How do we know we do not have the capacity to have infinite knowledge? If we don't, then there's no need to give us tidbits progressively as the capacity is never there. If we do have it, or are capable of having it, then surely it is in the hands (figuratively) of the creator to bestow us such a power.

Essentially, why should god have to put up with our limitations, when he created us...and could have done so without putting any limitations on us. And why would god, knowing he has put limitations on us, give us a message that has been through history perverted (if indeed the perversion isn't the message itself) that would cause our own destruction?

Again, it's nonsensical. If god wanted to tell us something, he should give us the capacity to be able to understand that message to our full benefit. A god that doesn't, seems like a god that is just toying with us. Purposely making us flawed and then making us play chinese whispers which eventually has lead to us killing each other.