A Selection from "Resaleh" (Towzih ol Masael) Book of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini

[deerouz]

is this a reliable source? Not that a man gave it; as all men are flawed. But is the book reliable?

I don't claim to have any knowledge beyond what one typically hears in a high school dini class under IRI as well as acouple of books! Don't put me in the same line wth yourself or FP.

But I agree with you that trying to find agreement between science and religion is useless. Late bazargan spent a life time to relate health reasons to "Ab-e kor" and physical benefits for prayer, and failed. The areas of the two are totally separate. Religion is based on faith, science is based on facts. Religion steps in wherever science fails to provide an answer. Now the main question is that: are there questions that science will never be able to answer?

 

[Kaz]

Thanks anyway, I am just trying to show that even if we actually use the two days as meaning two equal eons of ~2.25billion years, the earth could only have been created on the last of these 2 days and furthermore, everything in it or around it (i.e. moon) would have had to be created on the same days. I am interested in knowing, since I can't seem to find it in the quran when all the other things were said to have been created.

 

[deerouz]

Thanks anyway, I am just trying to show that even if we actually use the two days as meaning two equal eons of ~2.25billion years, the earth could only have been created on the last of these 2 days and furthermore, everything in it or around it (i.e. moon) would have had to be created on the same days. I am interested in knowing, since I can't seem to find it in the quran when all the other things were said to have been created.

I can tell you why this debate would not work:
1) If you show in Quran that it says "six days", then the othr side will argue that those refer to periods and not days.
2) Obviously you won't be able to quote anything more spcific from God. However if you bring a quote from Muhammad or others, the other side can argue that the quote was a human interpretation based on the knowledge of that time., or a weak hadith.
3) Even if you prove that Muhammad made a mistake in some cases, according to majority Sunnis (as I have heard) he was only infallible when he delivered Quran . So he could have made a mistake in his interpretations.

In other words, this debate will not get anywhere.

 

[Kaz]

Yes, I guess you are right.

 

[Fole_Penalt]

Really? Here is the translation of two verses in Quran from an Islamic web site (no Christian translation, no neocons, anti-Islamic people, etc.) So, you believe these are the words of the Creator of Universe. I know that tons of interpretations are now going to pour in about Tashbeeh and what the words really mean, etc. But, this is the translation by a Muslim on an Islamic site, and there are many other translations like this.

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura4.htm
[4:15] Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.
[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, ** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

Yes, really. Now, I do not think that you have the intention of actually learning the truth about those verses or other parts of the Quran. So at this point I do not wish to be charitable to you in explaining them. A different person that I felt quite differently about asked a similar question about the second verse quite recently. I did explain my understanding to him in detail and straightforwardly and why I believe is the most just.

 

[Thinkpad]

I do not think that you have the intention of actually learning the truth about those verses or other parts of the Quran

FP jaan,
صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ
Don't waste your time.

 

[Ardesheer]

Yes, really. Now, I do not think that you have the intention of actually learning the truth about those verses or other parts of the Quran. So at this point I do not wish to be charitable to you in explaining them. A different person that I felt quite differently about asked a similar question about the second verse quite recently. I did explain my understanding to him in detail and straightforwardly and why I believe is the most just.

I am not suprised. You guys have an answer for everything even when you have no answer. You should not be so judgmental. I am not posting here just for self-gratification. I am posting here so others can also the truth, and I have posted real statements by Khomeini and real verses from Quran. I know you will try to explain these things away one way or another, but how many times and how many of these do you have to deal with before others realize that some of them do not make any sense at all. I read above that someone mentioned that somewhere in Quran it is mentioned that the universe was created in eight days which contradicts six days somewhere else. I did not see a response to that one either.

 

[Ardesheer]

FP jaan,
صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ
Don't waste your time.

Well, you waste a lot of time here with your nonsense about Islam, let him waste some time too.

 

[Thinkpad]

Well, you waste a lot of time here with your nonsense about Islam, let him waste some time too.

آقا اردشیر،
شما نه به اسلام میتونی لطمه میزنی، نه به خدا. فقط وقت خودت میگیری.
ایمان من كه هرچی با شما و امثال شما صحبت میکنم بیشتر میشه.
اقلا من احساس میکنم ثواب کردم. شما كه به ثواب و جزا عقیده نداری چی؟
بهر حال امیدوارم خدا براه راست هدایتت کنه.​

 

[Ardesheer]

آقا اردشیر،
شما نه به اسلام میتونی لطمه میزنی، نه به خدا. فقط وقت خودت میگیری.
ایمان من كه هرچی با شما و امثال شما صحبت میکنم بیشتر میشه.
اقلا من احساس میکنم ثواب کردم. شما كه به ثواب و جزا عقیده نداری چی؟

بهر حال امیدوارم خدا براه راست هدایتت کنه.​

This is exactly your problem, my friend. All your statements above are self-centered (1) how you and your religion are not damaged, (2) your faith improves, (3) "savab konee" so when you go to heaven have more bonus points and get more, etc.

I post these things to help the humanity to the extent I can. If someone reads these things and gets intrigued to read further on their own to determine whether Quran is the words of God, I'll be happy, and I think that I have made some more contribution to the humanity, and especially Iranians who were born Muslim. I am not here as part of my job (like some Hezis here) or to do some "savab" like you so I can go to heaven. I am here to pass on what I have seen and verified in Quran, like someone else wrote about it and passed it to me.

 

[General Parsaian]

This is exactly your problem, my friend. All your statements above are self-centered (1) how you and your religion are not damaged, (2) your faith improves, (3) "savab konee" so when you go to heaven have more bonus points and get more, etc.

I post these things to help the humanity to the extent I can. If someone reads these things and gets intrigued to read further on their own to determine whether Quran is the words of God, I'll be happy, and I think that I have made some more contribution to the humanity, and especially Iranians who were born Muslim. I am not here as part of my job (like some Hezis here) or to do some "savab" like you so I can go to heaven. I am here to pass on what I have seen and verified in Quran, like someone else wrote about it and passed it to me.

جناب اردشیر
شما اول بروید چند تا کتاب بخوانید تا معلوماتتان بیشتر شود و به خودتان کمک کنید
بشریت پیش کشتان جانم

 

[Fole_Penalt]

I am not suprised. You guys have an answer for everything even when you have no answer. You should not be so judgmental. I am not posting here just for self-gratification. I am posting here so others can also the truth, and I have posted real statements by Khomeini and real verses from Quran. I know you will try to explain these things away one way or another, but how many times and how many of these do you have to deal with before others realize that some of them do not make any sense at all. I read above that someone mentioned that somewhere in Quran it is mentioned that the universe was created in eight days which contradicts six days somewhere else. I did not see a response to that one either.

Thank you for proving the judgment I passed on you to be true so plainly and so quickly.

 

[Ardesheer]

جناب اردشیر
شما اول بروید چند تا کتاب بخوانید تا معلوماتتان بیشتر شود و به خودتان کمک کنید
بشریت پیش کشتان جانم

Thanks. Coming from you, it's a major complement. It's funny, because everyone here feels sorry for you and is trying to help you.

 

[Ardesheer]

Thank you for proving the judgment I passed on you to be true so plainly and so quickly.

Nobody cares about your judgment, since it's totally flawed. Look, if you support beating your wife, that's your problem, but when you advertise a religion that sanctions beating women, that's the society's problem.

For Gooroohban Ghandalie who needs to study some more, do you know why you need four witnesses before putting your wife in a room to die (i.e. life imprisonment)? It was because when people said Ayesheh had slept with a young man, there were three witnesses, and Mohammad said that they needed four (sorry, Allah said you needed four, because Quran is Allah's words). The three people who made the accusation were whipped after that. That's Sharia laws for you, what's below.

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura4.htm
[4:15] Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.
[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, ** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

* By the way, even the translator realizes that Allah is going too far and adds a paranthetical "(as a last alternative)". Those words are added by the translator.

I know my ideas are extreme for those who beat their wives and think it's OK. Let's pick a middle ground for those who want to revise Quran, let's beat women lightly so you don't cause bruises. That's what the moderates say about this verse. Also, at that time, men used to beat their wives right away, so this verse is for protection of women, because it says talk to them first, then given them incentives. Back then men used to start beating right away, so Mohammad was ahead of his time, and said don't beat them right away. Also, I don't see what women can do if their men don't listen to them. How about a man that commits adultery and there are four witnesses? Do they also get life in prison? What if there are four witnesses against a woman and five in favor, I guess we still have to put her in prison for life. Oh, no, we need the General to interpret Quran for us, because that does not make any sense. Wait, we can say these verses were for 1400 years ago and we can ignore them now. Don't you guys get tired? Don't you ever stop and think for a minute? Maybe the Creator of Universe did not say these things. Maybe someone made these things up. Maybe the Creator of Universe is a loving creator who loves evreyone, women as much as men. How frustrating it must be for a loving creator to hear these anti-women statements being attributed to the creator? You guys think that those who do not accept Allah as the creator are anti-God and you are pro-God. What if Allah is not God? Who is anti-God then? The creator that I want to believe in is one that would not send you guys to hell for that and will still love you. Your Allah, on the other hand, cannot wait to get its hands on those who even raise questions about Quran.

 

[Thinkpad]

This is exactly your problem, my friend. All your statements above are self-centered (1) how you and your religion are not damaged, (2) your faith improves, (3) "savab konee" so when you go to heaven have more bonus points and get more, etc.

I post these things to help the humanity to the extent I can. If someone reads these things and gets intrigued to read further on their own to determine whether Quran is the words of God, I'll be happy, and I think that I have made some more contribution to the humanity, and especially Iranians who were born Muslim. I am not here as part of my job (like some Hezis here) or to do some "savab" like you so I can go to heaven. I am here to pass on what I have seen and verified in Quran, like someone else wrote about it and passed it to me.

شما بيشتر كتاب بخون عزيز برادر كه نگي سوره بقره مكي! و اينطوري ابروي خودتو نبري
به قول جنرال "بله جانم"

 

[Meehandoost]

I don't think relativity comes into it. We are talking about god and his absolutes. In the faith of Islam, we talk about the last prophet and hence the last message. If truth is relative, so are morals and if so, then the message has to continuously be given again and again, all the time. Not just in terms of time, but in terms of place, people and all other factors that can change the meaning of truth and make it relative. So they are meant to be taken as absolutes.

No dear, this is not particular to Islam; followers of all past religions have (mis)interpretated some of their scriptures to view their religion as the final guidance, whereas in truth, there is no last, only the latest. We need not be bound by others' views, rather by reason and logic. True that God is absolute in His own essence, because how can a created thing truly know its creator, but when it comes to His relationship with His creatures, i.e. His Message and Messengers, all truths must be relative since it makes no sense for an All-knowing Creator whose creativity has no end to have no more Guidance, or no more creativity. This does not mean that morals are relative and changing, rather that our perception and understanding of them is evolving and deepening. For instance, all humans regardless of gender or race have always been equal in the sight of our Creator, but our limited understanding as a specie had not allowed us to fully grasp this truth, therefore equality and equity were not possible in the past. This progress has been made over time and in steps. Equally in the future, posterity will achieve heights that are unimaginable to us, this is evolution and progress.

Now, that may be a flaw in people, that we all see things from our perspective, but that too then becomes god's responsibility for having created us. If god wants us to follow certain guidelines, you'd think he'd give us the capacity to be uniform.

Keep in mind that the prime directive of this world is that of "free will". As well, these are learning that will help us draw closer to our Creator. Being imperfect is not a punishment, rather a condition of learning and evolution. That which is perfect needs no evolution, we do! But this should not be viewed as a punishment, rather an opportunity to learn new truths and grow spiritually, intellectually and materially which is the purpose of creation.

In essence, it comes down to the question of: if we need instructions by god, why did god make us flawed to begin with to need them? It's akin to a mechanic purposely creating a faulty engine just so he can tamper with it later.

No dear, it would be akin to a child going through school to learn and grow. One can also call that child as incomplete and defective, but as mentioned before, this is the process by which we grow and draw closer to our Creator on a personal level, and carry forward an ever-advancing civilization as a society. I hope this makes more sense.

 

[Ardesheer]

شما بيشتر كتاب بخون عزيز برادر كه نگي سوره بقره مكي! و اينطوري ابروي خودتو نبري
به قول جنرال "بله جانم"

I see that you are having an alliance with General, a pro-IRI, sktizo. No Personal Attacks allowed in ISPand celebrate your religion. You have always said that you accept what's in Quran. Are these Maddani or Makki? I tell you these are Nanggi, not matter who says them:

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura4.htm
[4:15] Those who commit adultery among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.
[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, ** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

* By the way, even the translator realizes that Allah is going too far and adds a paranthetical "(as a last alternative)". Those words are added by the translator.

 

[Kaz]

No dear, this is not particular to Islam; followers of all past religions have (mis)interpretated some of their scriptures to view their religion as the final guidance, whereas in truth, there is no last, only the latest. We need not be bound by others' views, rather by reason and logic. True that God is absolute in His own essence, because how can a created thing truly know its creator, but when it comes to His relationship with His creatures, i.e. His Message and Messengers, all truths must be relative since it makes no sense for an All-knowing Creator whose creativity has no end to have no more Guidance, or no more creativity. This does not mean that morals are relative and changing, rather that our perception and understanding of them is evolving and deepening. For instance, all humans regardless of gender or race have always been equal in the sight of our Creator, but our limited understanding as a specie had not allowed us to fully grasp this truth, therefore equality and equity were not possible in the past. This progress has been made over time and in steps. Equally in the future, posterity will achieve heights that are unimaginable to us, this is evolution and progress.

Our understanding of them is still down to god's gift to us - which is flawed. So if we are flawed and can't understand the message in it's infinite wisdom, god made it so. And what possible reason could there be for that? With all due respect, mage khoda kerm dare ke een karo bokone?

And our logic seems to be pervaded because in Ancient Greece, before Jesus or Muhammad, democracy sprouted up. What for then the teachings which you inherently admit were inequitable that came later? So indeed it hasn't happened all in order from ignorance to enlightenment.

Keep in mind that the prime directive of this world is that of "free will". As well, these are learning that will help us draw closer to our Creator. Being imperfect is not a punishment, rather a condition of learning and evolution. That which is perfect needs no evolution, we do! But this should not be viewed as a punishment, rather an opportunity to learn new truths and grow spiritually, intellectually and materially which is the purpose of creation.

Having free will and being perfect are two different things. Lest I am wrong, the Quran does not point to tell you how to live every facet of your life (and by this I mean EVERY facet) so those rules that it did indeed deem important enough to communicate could have been given to us without the inherent flaw in our comprehension to misinterpret them. They would have been the framework and the rest of our lives upto our own free-will.

And even aside from that, why should we be given free-will at all? Why should there be a heaven or a hell, a bad or a good, a sin or a savab? Does god like playing games with his creations?

No dear, it would be akin to a child going through school to learn and grow. One can also call that child as incomplete and defective, but as mentioned before, this is the process by which we grow and draw closer to our Creator on a personal level, and carry forward an ever-advancing civilization as a society. I hope this makes more sense.

Mate, it's not akin to it at all. You do not have any control of the intelligence or talents of your off-spring. God does; he could have bestowed us exactly that of which he demands. So if we are flawed, it is still his doing.

 

[Thinkpad]

I see that you are having an alliance with General, a pro-IRI, sktizo. EDITED: NO PERSONAL INSULT and celebrate your religion. You have always said that you accept what's in Quran. Are these Maddani or Makki? I tell you these are Nanggi, not matter who says them:

دوست عزیز،
شما بجای ناراحت شدن و حمله به خانواده بنده و اتهام به اعضای فرم ، بهتر است وقتتون رو به مطالعه بگذرونین.
عزیز، شما وقتی میفرمایین سوره بقره مکی، من چطور شمارو جدی بگیرم؟ یا میفرمایین محمد وقتی به مدینه امد هیچکاره بود. خوب اینها همه از بی اطلاعی میاد. .​

 

[Meehandoost]

Our understanding of them is still down to god's gift to us - which is flawed. So if we are flawed and can't understand the message in it's infinite wisdom, god made it so. And what possible reason could there be for that? With all due respect, mage khoda kerm dare ke een karo bokone?

Not quite dear. Our understanding of them (i.e religious truths) is a function of our conditions, challenges, spiritual education, and our potentialities which are as you say our Creator's gift to us. These potentialities and capacities are latent in all of us and only will be made into capabilities in accordance with our spiritual education, conditions and of course effort. Capacities are present in all, just as a small seed that possesses all the potentialities of a mighty oak tree. However, fertile soil (education), water (word of God), sunlight (love) and its own effort are needed to help it drive its roots into the ground and become the mighty tree. Some other seeds that are left on rocks, wither away which is why education and connection with the creative Word are so important.

And our logic seems to be pervaded because in Ancient Greece, before Jesus or Muhammad, democracy sprouted up. What for then the teachings which you inherently admit were inequitable that came later? So indeed it hasn't happened all in order from ignorance to enlightenment.

Revelations appear to different people in accordance with their challenges and comprehension, it's not a competition. Overall, progress is made with every step. As well, spiritual education is more important than material.

Having free will and being perfect are two different things. Lest I am wrong, the Quran does not point to tell you how to live every facet of your life (and by this I mean EVERY facet) so those rules that it did indeed deem important enough to communicate could have been given to us without the inherent flaw in our comprehension to misinterpret them. They would have been the framework and the rest of our lives upto our own free-will.

True, but passage of time and greed of clerics for power perverts the Cause of God which is why renewal is necessary. Just as the water that comes out of a spring is first pure, and as it rolls down the mountain gathers dirt and dross, the Cause of God too becomes polluted with man-made superstitions and dogma which is why it needs to be renewed at frequent intervals.

And even aside from that, why should we be given free-will at all? Why should there be a heaven or a hell, a bad or a good, a sin or a savab? Does god like playing games with his creations?

That's a lengthy discussion in itself, but suffice it to say that there is no "bad" or "darkness" or "evil" in the world, only lack of good and light. The Creator of all things who is good and loving has not created "sheytan" or "demons" to fight us, only that demon is our own lower nature in the absence of goodness and love. Heaven and hell too are only state of spiritual being and our closeness or remoteness to our Maker, as opposed to a place. These are creations of power-hungry clergy who have enslaved the masses for ages to sell them tickets to their "heaven"! Don't believe it dear!

Mate, it's not akin to it at all. You do not have any control of the intelligence or talents of your off-spring. God does; he could have bestowed us exactly that of which he demands. So if we are flawed, it is still his doing.

Recall, it is the difference between "capacities" and "capabilities" dear. Loving spiritual education, and steadfast perseverance will turn our capacities into capabilities. In short, we cannot be "mad" with our Maker for not doing all things for us. In this level of existence we grow as a result of our efforts and accomplishments. This has to do with the very purpose of our lives and the condition of our souls as spiritual beings to naturally yearn after its Maker.