I agree and this is why it really surprises me that some people are so content with Moussavi at this stage of the movement.
I share your concern on the fact that the movement is not developing any practical plans after a year to reach its goals but I also take it one step further that statements like above from Moussavi, will alienate and frustrate some of his supporters and can lead to different branches of green which at the end may not be such a bad thing.
We have seen on the previous revolution how some parties became branched and ... I will not be surprised if we see this happening to the United Green movement from within Iran soon.
I share your concern on the fact that the movement is not developing any practical plans after a year to reach its goals but I also take it one step further that statements like above from Moussavi, will alienate and frustrate some of his supporters and can lead to different branches of green which at the end may not be such a bad thing.
We have seen on the previous revolution how some parties became branched and ... I will not be surprised if we see this happening to the United Green movement from within Iran soon.
I do share the same concern.
However, I am a realist. I think we have been detached from realities on the ground, being somewhat excited by the bravity of some of our youth.
The reality I hear from anyone coming from Iran is so different. People have lives, family and they run from dawn to dust to bring some bread to their family. Risks are too high and people do not find going out there worth it. They hate IRI and they are really hurt with stealing their votes and everything. But they are not willing to risk their lives and family for an unknown future.
I believe, had our people known that IRI would have acted so harshly, they would not have even demonstrated like in 25th Khordad. Many killed were not there to be killed, except few brave souls among youth. That is the reality we close our eyes on. And that is reality Mousavi and co. know for sure. IRI knows this too. It is a checkmate for green now in terms of doing any change via street demonstrations.
People are not even willing to topple mullahs with high risks. They say so what if they go? We know all politicians eventually will be theives.
So unless you picture a clear future where you can guarantee a corruption free and free atmosphere, without having to wait years for improvement of economic situation, no one is going to risk anything.
However, there is one hope that keeps people hopeful and green so called leaders active. They are after some breakthrough. Some event or some developement that would weaken the regime such that toppling regime (for people) or reinstating reform (for green leaders) becomes possible with far less risks. Say celebrations of Khamenei's death or some rift among the goverment. I am not sure what. But it is a dead end now!
Please bear in mind, I am not blaming people for not risking and I am not even saying they should. We hate IRI and want mullahs to go, the sooner the better. But I like many inside Iran, do not like the risks and do not have a clear picture of what is going to come, either with Mousavi or anyone else. However, with little risk, I like to give it a go.
For those who put the whole blame on Mousavi and co. They also turn a blind eye on how he and Karoubi think. Babam Jaan, they are the leaders of green, beleiving that people believe in what they believe, i.e. an imaginary Khomeini era where constitution is there with a wise Faghih on top etc. etc. Are they dillusioned? yes. Are people dillusioned? Somewhat. People like them because they think if somehow they manage to bring Mousavi and co. to power, they will be able to seize the oppotunity of a somewhat more open society to develope it to something better "over the time".
Otherwise, if Mousavi and co. realize what you guys in the outsie want will be realized with green victory they will resign from green tomorrow. They are content that people might give them a chance to give that transient system in hope of showing they can give what people want, avoiding the mistakes of the past. Or perhaps they think without war and MKO's threat they can give enough to content people.
So the bottom line is realism, realism, realism and avoid WOW and excitement to blur your vision and think that there are millions of die hard anti-mullah protestors ready to march on, awaiting one command from Mousavi to do. That is dillusional. At most we have thousands like that and regime has enough troops to mach ten time that. However, on the other hand, regime is also dillusional. The days millions marched in their support and thousands fought for them with their lives are over. They have mercenaries and corrupted supporters who will, at any time, change sides, if they see it fit.
However, I am a realist. I think we have been detached from realities on the ground, being somewhat excited by the bravity of some of our youth.
The reality I hear from anyone coming from Iran is so different. People have lives, family and they run from dawn to dust to bring some bread to their family. Risks are too high and people do not find going out there worth it. They hate IRI and they are really hurt with stealing their votes and everything. But they are not willing to risk their lives and family for an unknown future.
I believe, had our people known that IRI would have acted so harshly, they would not have even demonstrated like in 25th Khordad. Many killed were not there to be killed, except few brave souls among youth. That is the reality we close our eyes on. And that is reality Mousavi and co. know for sure. IRI knows this too. It is a checkmate for green now in terms of doing any change via street demonstrations.
People are not even willing to topple mullahs with high risks. They say so what if they go? We know all politicians eventually will be theives.
So unless you picture a clear future where you can guarantee a corruption free and free atmosphere, without having to wait years for improvement of economic situation, no one is going to risk anything.
However, there is one hope that keeps people hopeful and green so called leaders active. They are after some breakthrough. Some event or some developement that would weaken the regime such that toppling regime (for people) or reinstating reform (for green leaders) becomes possible with far less risks. Say celebrations of Khamenei's death or some rift among the goverment. I am not sure what. But it is a dead end now!
Please bear in mind, I am not blaming people for not risking and I am not even saying they should. We hate IRI and want mullahs to go, the sooner the better. But I like many inside Iran, do not like the risks and do not have a clear picture of what is going to come, either with Mousavi or anyone else. However, with little risk, I like to give it a go.
For those who put the whole blame on Mousavi and co. They also turn a blind eye on how he and Karoubi think. Babam Jaan, they are the leaders of green, beleiving that people believe in what they believe, i.e. an imaginary Khomeini era where constitution is there with a wise Faghih on top etc. etc. Are they dillusioned? yes. Are people dillusioned? Somewhat. People like them because they think if somehow they manage to bring Mousavi and co. to power, they will be able to seize the oppotunity of a somewhat more open society to develope it to something better "over the time".
Otherwise, if Mousavi and co. realize what you guys in the outsie want will be realized with green victory they will resign from green tomorrow. They are content that people might give them a chance to give that transient system in hope of showing they can give what people want, avoiding the mistakes of the past. Or perhaps they think without war and MKO's threat they can give enough to content people.
So the bottom line is realism, realism, realism and avoid WOW and excitement to blur your vision and think that there are millions of die hard anti-mullah protestors ready to march on, awaiting one command from Mousavi to do. That is dillusional. At most we have thousands like that and regime has enough troops to mach ten time that. However, on the other hand, regime is also dillusional. The days millions marched in their support and thousands fought for them with their lives are over. They have mercenaries and corrupted supporters who will, at any time, change sides, if they see it fit.
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If you want to look at the big picture, techniacally none of us should be frustrated with the leaders of this movement, we should have patience and keep our unity and aim for a long term dismanteling of IR.
I'd be all for that except these so called "leaders" have made mistake after mistake: not using the momentum of the green movement at its peak, not confronting their opponents directly, no organization or delegation of duties, no straight up discussing of issues and most of all FEAR ... they fear being flushed with the rest of IR down the same toilet ...
all this while facing a reckless and organized opponent who stops at nothing and has no shame ... try to talk to these OLAGHS about jameyeh madani for the next 300 years ... they'll still be holding the guns and sucking this nation's blood dry ...
Obviously there is no easy solution to this situation and some big event needs to get sparked and it doesn't start at anniversary of any other movement ...it needs to be organic and based on all demographics ... for now we're stuck with these front men, like it or not ... at least one step better than khatami ke rafteh yeh soorakhi ghayem shodeh
I'd be all for that except these so called "leaders" have made mistake after mistake: not using the momentum of the green movement at its peak, not confronting their opponents directly, no organization or delegation of duties, no straight up discussing of issues and most of all FEAR ... they fear being flushed with the rest of IR down the same toilet ...
all this while facing a reckless and organized opponent who stops at nothing and has no shame ... try to talk to these OLAGHS about jameyeh madani for the next 300 years ... they'll still be holding the guns and sucking this nation's blood dry ...
Obviously there is no easy solution to this situation and some big event needs to get sparked and it doesn't start at anniversary of any other movement ...it needs to be organic and based on all demographics ... for now we're stuck with these front men, like it or not ... at least one step better than khatami ke rafteh yeh soorakhi ghayem shodeh
>>so called "leaders" have made mistake after mistake
First of all the guy is saying he is no leader, only a campanion, he says he is not perfect -- see where he says people chose he because they were chosing better evil refer to entekhabe bad va baddar... Koonesho pare kard az bas ke goft!
>>not using the momentum of the green movement at its peak
ur suggestions? i agree, but don't know what effective methods could have been taken.
>> not confronting their opponents directly
what does direct confrontation mean? elaborate plz.
>>no organization or delegation of duties
no organization? delegation of duties? to whom? most (if not all) his closest people (his four main 'moshavers') are in jail. from the second day of clashes he created a group to look after victims of protests, they arrested members of that team (ali reza beheshti, alvieri), daftaresho roze avval polom kardan ... everyone who comes to meet him or he meets is threatened etc etc etc....
>>no straight up discussing of issues
what's straight up? he has been talking and publishing letters left n right, talkin about every little event that has happened in this year, even execution of innocent kurdish political prisoners ...
>>most of all FEAR ... they fear being flushed with the rest of IR down
fear?! i don't think u can accuse him of fearing the gov/militia, despite assassinating his nephew which was a direct signal to silence him, he didn't back down even a day .. fear of being flushed with the rest of IR?!! by who, by 3 millions people who were chanting his name?! huh?!
First of all the guy is saying he is no leader, only a campanion, he says he is not perfect -- see where he says people chose he because they were chosing better evil refer to entekhabe bad va baddar... Koonesho pare kard az bas ke goft!
>>not using the momentum of the green movement at its peak
ur suggestions? i agree, but don't know what effective methods could have been taken.
>> not confronting their opponents directly
what does direct confrontation mean? elaborate plz.
>>no organization or delegation of duties
no organization? delegation of duties? to whom? most (if not all) his closest people (his four main 'moshavers') are in jail. from the second day of clashes he created a group to look after victims of protests, they arrested members of that team (ali reza beheshti, alvieri), daftaresho roze avval polom kardan ... everyone who comes to meet him or he meets is threatened etc etc etc....
>>no straight up discussing of issues
what's straight up? he has been talking and publishing letters left n right, talkin about every little event that has happened in this year, even execution of innocent kurdish political prisoners ...
>>most of all FEAR ... they fear being flushed with the rest of IR down
fear?! i don't think u can accuse him of fearing the gov/militia, despite assassinating his nephew which was a direct signal to silence him, he didn't back down even a day .. fear of being flushed with the rest of IR?!! by who, by 3 millions people who were chanting his name?! huh?!
History will judge well the brilliance of Mousavi and his team leadership during the green movement upheaval and their skillful manuvering .
Statements such as the following two are due to profound understanding of the enemy by Mousavi and his advisers.
In addition, since Mousavi repeatedly called himself a follower or a member of this great movement. Anybody he/she or any group who thinks can do a better job, a better outcome, attract more people, please by all means. People of Iran have been waiting 30 years for such person or group.
For me the brilliance of today's statement is the editiorial by Mousavi's biggest critique, "Akhbar Rooz". read that if you have not yet.
Statements such as the following two are due to profound understanding of the enemy by Mousavi and his advisers.
بیانیه شماره 1 مهندس میرحسین موسوی
اينجانب از همين فرصت استفاده ميكنم و ضمن تشكر از عواطف ملت بزرگوار ايران به آنان تذكر مي دهم كه ايران اين موجود آسماني
متعلق به آنان است و نه متقلبان، اين آنان هستند كه بايد با هوشياري خود از آن حفاظت كنند. خائنين به آراء مردم ابايي از آن ندارند كه اين
خانه پارسايان به آتش كشيده شود.
اينجانب از همين فرصت استفاده ميكنم و ضمن تشكر از عواطف ملت بزرگوار ايران به آنان تذكر مي دهم كه ايران اين موجود آسماني
متعلق به آنان است و نه متقلبان، اين آنان هستند كه بايد با هوشياري خود از آن حفاظت كنند. خائنين به آراء مردم ابايي از آن ندارند كه اين
خانه پارسايان به آتش كشيده شود.
بیانیه شماره 12 مهندس میرحسین موسوی
سلسله حوادث جديدي كه آغاز شده است به مانند ديگر تحركات كور اين ايام براي مخالفان شما جز خسارت باقي نخواهد گذاشت. مراقب
باشيد كه آنها شما را تحريك نكنند و به هنگام نابود كردن خود به
كاشانه و كشورتان لطمه نزنند
سلسله حوادث جديدي كه آغاز شده است به مانند ديگر تحركات كور اين ايام براي مخالفان شما جز خسارت باقي نخواهد گذاشت. مراقب
باشيد كه آنها شما را تحريك نكنند و به هنگام نابود كردن خود به
كاشانه و كشورتان لطمه نزنند
In addition, since Mousavi repeatedly called himself a follower or a member of this great movement. Anybody he/she or any group who thinks can do a better job, a better outcome, attract more people, please by all means. People of Iran have been waiting 30 years for such person or group.
For me the brilliance of today's statement is the editiorial by Mousavi's biggest critique, "Akhbar Rooz". read that if you have not yet.
Agha I usually don't do these long winded back and forths, so excuse me if this will be my last response ...
He's not a companion ... that's just him not shouldering the responsibility. Who cares what he says he is ... the fact is most people who went to the street went in his support, and endangered their lives to support his ideologies ... and now he's responsible for that blood with every decision he makes
Yes, in the first few days of the movement when everyone came to the streets, and the regime was surprised, not ready to handle the massive protestors these guys chose to be silent and "follow the people" instead of leading them, telling them straight up, go protest and ask for your vote ... he didn't want to say anything so it doesn't get interpretted that he is behind the people's movement, he wanted to portray the image that the movement is organic ... WHO CARES? you're trying to sell the nature of the movement to your enemies? people knew and IR knew what's happening ... so in my opinion the two of them left people without any guidance in the most important and critical beginning days ... if you remember rafsanjani's namaz jomeh speech rejuvinated the movement to some point ... Mousavi couldn't even do that.
yeah they still after a year speak in abstract ... baba begoo Ahmadinejad, speak of him with his name ... that's a sign of weakness ... refer to specific instances where AN has committed crimes, lied, killed and spread propeganda ... but no he still talks about "dasthayeh shoomi dar kaar hastand ke darand in mamlekat ra ... blah blah blah"
I'm sorry but that's pure bullshit ... he can make a video of a news conference in HD quality, answer questions for two hours but he can't access his closest assistants? how about reaching to students, picking leaders who IR does not expect? he is not in the position of power so it's natural he cannot go through the usual channels ... it's about showing ingenuity ... being motivated ... w/e ... but that's not this guy's character, his tone is cure for insomnia for christ sake
did he speak about how people got raped in prison? does he keep asking who was responsible for the rapes? who gave the order? what happened to victims? or did he just mention it once or twice in abstract ...
does he specifically ridicule the 200 scenarios the regime has offered as explanation for neda's death ... or did he just vaguely refer to it ... i dunno ... seems to me with his lingo ... someone who doesn't already know what's going on, won't get it ... only people who are already in the loop understand and what's the use of that?
they do fear ... they don't reach out to all people, and try to include as many supporters as they can ... he says our anthem has been "esteghlal azadi, jomhori eslami" nothing more, nothing less ... he is not in a position to exclude people from supporting him ... or his constant mention of khomeini ... excludes people ... these group only want to succeed with the message of jomhoori eslami ...
i'm not dellusional and i don't expect anything else and in my opinion he's done more than anyone ever expected from him and he has sacrificed alot ... but for someone who speaks of democracy and freedom ... you know they want to rule the country under the islamic rule and without a true and fair refrandum ... which is truely people's right if this movement ever succeeds ...
as i said it's not time for this kind of talk, we should all support him and them under one flag ... but he is the one excluding others ...
He's not a companion ... that's just him not shouldering the responsibility. Who cares what he says he is ... the fact is most people who went to the street went in his support, and endangered their lives to support his ideologies ... and now he's responsible for that blood with every decision he makes
Yes, in the first few days of the movement when everyone came to the streets, and the regime was surprised, not ready to handle the massive protestors these guys chose to be silent and "follow the people" instead of leading them, telling them straight up, go protest and ask for your vote ... he didn't want to say anything so it doesn't get interpretted that he is behind the people's movement, he wanted to portray the image that the movement is organic ... WHO CARES? you're trying to sell the nature of the movement to your enemies? people knew and IR knew what's happening ... so in my opinion the two of them left people without any guidance in the most important and critical beginning days ... if you remember rafsanjani's namaz jomeh speech rejuvinated the movement to some point ... Mousavi couldn't even do that.
yeah they still after a year speak in abstract ... baba begoo Ahmadinejad, speak of him with his name ... that's a sign of weakness ... refer to specific instances where AN has committed crimes, lied, killed and spread propeganda ... but no he still talks about "dasthayeh shoomi dar kaar hastand ke darand in mamlekat ra ... blah blah blah"
I'm sorry but that's pure bullshit ... he can make a video of a news conference in HD quality, answer questions for two hours but he can't access his closest assistants? how about reaching to students, picking leaders who IR does not expect? he is not in the position of power so it's natural he cannot go through the usual channels ... it's about showing ingenuity ... being motivated ... w/e ... but that's not this guy's character, his tone is cure for insomnia for christ sake
did he speak about how people got raped in prison? does he keep asking who was responsible for the rapes? who gave the order? what happened to victims? or did he just mention it once or twice in abstract ...
does he specifically ridicule the 200 scenarios the regime has offered as explanation for neda's death ... or did he just vaguely refer to it ... i dunno ... seems to me with his lingo ... someone who doesn't already know what's going on, won't get it ... only people who are already in the loop understand and what's the use of that?
they do fear ... they don't reach out to all people, and try to include as many supporters as they can ... he says our anthem has been "esteghlal azadi, jomhori eslami" nothing more, nothing less ... he is not in a position to exclude people from supporting him ... or his constant mention of khomeini ... excludes people ... these group only want to succeed with the message of jomhoori eslami ...
i'm not dellusional and i don't expect anything else and in my opinion he's done more than anyone ever expected from him and he has sacrificed alot ... but for someone who speaks of democracy and freedom ... you know they want to rule the country under the islamic rule and without a true and fair refrandum ... which is truely people's right if this movement ever succeeds ...
as i said it's not time for this kind of talk, we should all support him and them under one flag ... but he is the one excluding others ...
This statement of Mousavi is neither ten commandments nor any worst than other statements he have issued. Therefore I wouldn’t over-react. Either positively or negatively.
Obviously Mousavi’s main target is part of Khamenei gang. Trying to win them over and also to keep the "pressure" on Khamenei and co.
This is partly due to his attachment to “enghelab shokouhmand” and partly due to his political philosophy of “Feshar az paeein va chaneh-zani az bala” (like many reformists of khatami era).
Mousavi’s inconsistencies should be seen in that context. Mousavi genuinely believes in “armanhay enghelab & imam” and thinks this regime could be reformed.
Mousavi & Karoubi are what they are with all their strengths and weaknesses. As such no point to be overly harsh. Equally, we must be careful not to make an idol out of them. Logical consequences of idol creation would be worshipping and we had enough of that in our recent history, which brought us where we are today.
Obviously Mousavi’s main target is part of Khamenei gang. Trying to win them over and also to keep the "pressure" on Khamenei and co.
This is partly due to his attachment to “enghelab shokouhmand” and partly due to his political philosophy of “Feshar az paeein va chaneh-zani az bala” (like many reformists of khatami era).
Mousavi’s inconsistencies should be seen in that context. Mousavi genuinely believes in “armanhay enghelab & imam” and thinks this regime could be reformed.
Mousavi & Karoubi are what they are with all their strengths and weaknesses. As such no point to be overly harsh. Equally, we must be careful not to make an idol out of them. Logical consequences of idol creation would be worshipping and we had enough of that in our recent history, which brought us where we are today.
people keep on complaining about the fact that these folks are no leaders at all. and they are right these guys are no FDR and Lincoln for sure.
but then again history only creates great leaders every once in a while in every society.
in our own country (whether you agree or disagree with personalities)
we have had three big personalities in 100 years.
Reza Shah
Dr Mosadegh
Ayatollah khomeini.
for thirty years the movement outside Iran has not produced one real leader.
but as ahmad salamatian said a few days ago in BBC the process of going to jail has become the tool to create leaders in Iran.
some leaders created in the process
Ahmad Batebi
Tabarzadi.
Tajzadeh
karbaschi
these things take time (an overwhelming consensus in society that there is huge change in direction where society needs to go)
people make fun of mousavi and his approach (and I am myself frustrated with it) but the reality is anytime I go to IRAn and visit village or small town and I am surprised to find people whom this kind of dialog could be effective to reach as opposed to secularism is greatest thing on earth dialog.
This last time I was in Iran a fellow who was barely 21 came up to me and said what do you say about the fact that "kamar amrica be khak malidim?" I asked what do you mean by that? He was like their entire economy crashed it was proven that that the entire western system is a sham.
I have to be honest to say the guy was not any kind of useless man who gets paid by the government to beat people up. he was part time welder and part time boucher and a part time shepherd.
I think many here need to travel much farther than tehran and few other big cities to really realize the depth and breadth of where the society is as a whole.
but then again history only creates great leaders every once in a while in every society.
in our own country (whether you agree or disagree with personalities)
we have had three big personalities in 100 years.
Reza Shah
Dr Mosadegh
Ayatollah khomeini.
for thirty years the movement outside Iran has not produced one real leader.
but as ahmad salamatian said a few days ago in BBC the process of going to jail has become the tool to create leaders in Iran.
some leaders created in the process
Ahmad Batebi
Tabarzadi.
Tajzadeh
karbaschi
these things take time (an overwhelming consensus in society that there is huge change in direction where society needs to go)
people make fun of mousavi and his approach (and I am myself frustrated with it) but the reality is anytime I go to IRAn and visit village or small town and I am surprised to find people whom this kind of dialog could be effective to reach as opposed to secularism is greatest thing on earth dialog.
This last time I was in Iran a fellow who was barely 21 came up to me and said what do you say about the fact that "kamar amrica be khak malidim?" I asked what do you mean by that? He was like their entire economy crashed it was proven that that the entire western system is a sham.
I have to be honest to say the guy was not any kind of useless man who gets paid by the government to beat people up. he was part time welder and part time boucher and a part time shepherd.
I think many here need to travel much farther than tehran and few other big cities to really realize the depth and breadth of where the society is as a whole.
TALK is CHEAP....
You guys critisize Mousavi the way he is handling this movement. It is always easy to "NAGG", come up with a damn solution, what would you do if you were Mousavi?
Come instead of making fun of him and his "Bajanie" come up with something better. I really want to know, what should he do?
If it is that easy why don't you guys do it?
A round trip to IRan cost around 1500 dollar, why don't you, spend that money and go ahead and topple IRI for us PLEASE...
I understand you are all frostrated but there is really no other ways. IRI is looking for an Excuse to get rid of all Movements supporter and leaders.... The thing is they have not given them any excuses yet.
Non violence movement is the only way to brake this regime. Don't you guys remember, Last year when there were 2-3 millions on the street, people were not even able to take over a Bassij head quarter.
This Regim will fall the question is when. Be patients. WE will get there.
You guys critisize Mousavi the way he is handling this movement. It is always easy to "NAGG", come up with a damn solution, what would you do if you were Mousavi?
Come instead of making fun of him and his "Bajanie" come up with something better. I really want to know, what should he do?
If it is that easy why don't you guys do it?
A round trip to IRan cost around 1500 dollar, why don't you, spend that money and go ahead and topple IRI for us PLEASE...
I understand you are all frostrated but there is really no other ways. IRI is looking for an Excuse to get rid of all Movements supporter and leaders.... The thing is they have not given them any excuses yet.
Non violence movement is the only way to brake this regime. Don't you guys remember, Last year when there were 2-3 millions on the street, people were not even able to take over a Bassij head quarter.
This Regim will fall the question is when. Be patients. WE will get there.
They could have easily taken over the bassij bases on the day of the supposed silent march. Infaact on ashura day there are many former sepah members who now say the regime was about to fall in tehran. people were controlling almost every big neighbourhood in the city.
A 2 million march with the aim of taking over everything can/will break the back of the regime. If ,ousavi says to people we will put together an interm goverment till people get a free vote to choose their next regime and comeout and overthrow this regime, people will do it.
The problem is people have stopped supporting him in iran because they see him as another tool to keep a dying regime that is on life support alive.His constant the golden era of khomenie is driving the people away from him.
A 2 million march with the aim of taking over everything can/will break the back of the regime. If ,ousavi says to people we will put together an interm goverment till people get a free vote to choose their next regime and comeout and overthrow this regime, people will do it.
The problem is people have stopped supporting him in iran because they see him as another tool to keep a dying regime that is on life support alive.His constant the golden era of khomenie is driving the people away from him.
I'm sorry dude, but there is nothing profound about Mousavi or his advisers and I doubt they have much understanding of their opponent or any real grasp on reality. And I say this even assuming that some of his advisers are coached and lead by brains likes Michael Ledeen.
He says:
"خائنين به آراء مردم ابايي از آن ندارند كه اين
خانه پارسايان به آتش كشيده شود"
This then begs the question why did he run for the presidency in the first place and more importantly why did he call for demonstrations after he was told he lost?! Didn't he and his advisors know who they were dealing with originally and just arrived at this "profound understanding" after they were figuratively and literally f..ed? And after they caused innocent and emotional young kids get killed or hurt?
I posted this a year ago:
http://forums.iransportspress.com/showthread.php?t=58595&highlight=mistake
Then I knew that demonstrations have no chance against IR's counter-measures and I only know about IR from what I read in the general news outlets. One has to wonder what Mousavi and his advisors who have worked for and in that regime for years and have contacts and intel beyond our dreams could possibly have thought otherwise.
Mousavi, his advisors and his supporters like Rafsanjani are only alive today first by the grace of God and then by the grace of Khamenei. If Khamenei were to die today there are elements within the regime and Sepah who will have no hesitancy to put on trial and execute or imprison not just Mousavi but anyone else involved in the first 2 decades of this revolution with the charge of treason or incompetence.
The actions of Mousavi and his advisors not only caused them to fail but also paved the way for all other dissenting political views (including "moderates") to be stifled. I would hardly call that foresight or success.
Now if he had first stayed out of the race or second graciously accepted his defeat then that would have taken away all excuses from the "radicals" to reign down on other political groups. Ahmadinejad would have at most served 4 more years (which he seems to be well on his way of doing and being quarter of a way done already) and then at the end of 4 more years the opposition could have come back and overwhelmingly defeated the "radicals" just as the Democrats in US did after 8 years of Bush's f...ups.
But hey, that's just my opinion and what the f.. do I know compared to all the political scientists and strategists on this board and more importantly those on airwaves and surrounding the likes of Mousavi!
He says:
"خائنين به آراء مردم ابايي از آن ندارند كه اين
خانه پارسايان به آتش كشيده شود"
This then begs the question why did he run for the presidency in the first place and more importantly why did he call for demonstrations after he was told he lost?! Didn't he and his advisors know who they were dealing with originally and just arrived at this "profound understanding" after they were figuratively and literally f..ed? And after they caused innocent and emotional young kids get killed or hurt?
I posted this a year ago:
http://forums.iransportspress.com/showthread.php?t=58595&highlight=mistake
Then I knew that demonstrations have no chance against IR's counter-measures and I only know about IR from what I read in the general news outlets. One has to wonder what Mousavi and his advisors who have worked for and in that regime for years and have contacts and intel beyond our dreams could possibly have thought otherwise.
Mousavi, his advisors and his supporters like Rafsanjani are only alive today first by the grace of God and then by the grace of Khamenei. If Khamenei were to die today there are elements within the regime and Sepah who will have no hesitancy to put on trial and execute or imprison not just Mousavi but anyone else involved in the first 2 decades of this revolution with the charge of treason or incompetence.
The actions of Mousavi and his advisors not only caused them to fail but also paved the way for all other dissenting political views (including "moderates") to be stifled. I would hardly call that foresight or success.
Now if he had first stayed out of the race or second graciously accepted his defeat then that would have taken away all excuses from the "radicals" to reign down on other political groups. Ahmadinejad would have at most served 4 more years (which he seems to be well on his way of doing and being quarter of a way done already) and then at the end of 4 more years the opposition could have come back and overwhelmingly defeated the "radicals" just as the Democrats in US did after 8 years of Bush's f...ups.
But hey, that's just my opinion and what the f.. do I know compared to all the political scientists and strategists on this board and more importantly those on airwaves and surrounding the likes of Mousavi!
کیهان زیاد میخونی عزیز دل برادر و شریعتمداری رو با امام زمان و روزنامه شوبا قرآن هم عوضی گرفتی. و الا که داره اینچیزا بهت وحی میشه
قاطی میکنی همه رو. موسوی و امثالهم به خامنه ای اعتماد داشتند ولی به احمدی نژاد خیر. اونا میدونستند که احمدی نژاد ممکنه این ملق بازیها رو بکنه ولی فکر نمیکردند با این فضاحت و با این شدت و به قیمت قتل و کشتار و غیره در حالیکه خامنه ای خر تا آخر ازش حمایت کنه. اونا فکر کردند مثل انتخابات خاتمی و ناطق نوری ، خامنه ای به رای مردم احترام بگذاره نه اینکه خودش هم به صورت علنی وارد عمل بشه و دست به قتل و جنایت بزنه و روی همه اعمال احمدی نژاد صحه بگذاره.
ممکنه حرفت درست باشه و وحشی ها وحشی تر بشوند. شاید مردم هم خام بشند و گولشون رو بخورند وهورا بکشند که ملا کشی راه افتاده و دوران خمینی به سر اومده. ولی خیلی هم توفیر نمیکنه. فقط مسئله اینکه اسلام اسلام میکنند دیگه یوخدی فینیتو و یک دیکتاتوری علنی حاکم میشه مثل برمه. . .امثال تو هم ریششون رو میتراشند و ریشه شون رو هم میتراشند و یازهرا تون هم میشه یا مدونا و یا اوشین و یا ربکا و روی خون جوانان و ملاها عرق خوری راه میندازند. حالا مردم بعدش چه میکنند اهورا داند. در هر صورت وجود اینه خبیثها به ضرر وطن ماست و خبیث تر از اونا خامنه ایه که از شکم کثیفش همچون موجوداتی در اومده.
البته سناریوی دیگه اینه که جشن مرگ خامنه ای جرقه ای بشه برای قیامی دیگر. مسلما خیلی ها جشن خواهند گرفت و دولت از این قضیه درمانده میشه. ولی خوب من رو حساب احتمالات گفتم و خواستم بگم حتی در اونصورت شما نون به نرخ روزخورهای زالو چیکار میکنید
البته سناریوی دیگه اینه که جشن مرگ خامنه ای جرقه ای بشه برای قیامی دیگر. مسلما خیلی ها جشن خواهند گرفت و دولت از این قضیه درمانده میشه. ولی خوب من رو حساب احتمالات گفتم و خواستم بگم حتی در اونصورت شما نون به نرخ روزخورهای زالو چیکار میکنید
هنوز شب درازه دوست من زیادی هیجان زده نشو
بچه خر میکنی
اگه مردم به تقلب در انتخابات اعتراض نکرده بودند الآن احمدی نژاد داشت رفراندوم قانون اساسی برای دور سوم رو درست میکرد. البته این بچه پررو هنوز هم ممکنه به این فکر هم باشه.
اگه مردم به تقلب در انتخابات اعتراض نکرده بودند الآن احمدی نژاد داشت رفراندوم قانون اساسی برای دور سوم رو درست میکرد. البته این بچه پررو هنوز هم ممکنه به این فکر هم باشه.
البته که این تراوشات ذهن توی واپس گراست. و الا اگه این حرفهای یک آنالیست سیاسی بود به سیستم دانشگاهی و سیاسی کل دنیا شک میکردیم.
واقعاً که چقدر این "شب" درازه! سی سال که از این شب گذشته بود، یک سال دیگر هم فعلاً رفت روش. چشم، ما هم به حرف شما گوش میکنیم و هیجان زده نمیشیم و بجایش مثل شما صبر پیشه میکنیم ببینیم بالاخره چند سال دیگر این "شب" به پایان میرسه. بالاخره خود قرآن هم میگه: اِنَ ا.. مَعَ الصابرین
دستتون به خمینی که نرسید. ظاهراً حساب خامنه ای را هم سپردین دست خدا. باشه بالاخره یکی از این روزها هم اگر نه، یکی از این سالها ترتیب یکی از رهبران این رژیم را هم شاید شما ها بدین
دستتون به خمینی که نرسید. ظاهراً حساب خامنه ای را هم سپردین دست خدا. باشه بالاخره یکی از این روزها هم اگر نه، یکی از این سالها ترتیب یکی از رهبران این رژیم را هم شاید شما ها بدین
how the fuck is this pure bullshit if his major assistants (Behzadnejad, Alireza behstehi shirazi, alireza beheshti was jailed twice, etc....) are in jail. HD quality? are u fuckin kiddin me, you can take hd quality vid with any cam now?! besides even that took them a year, their only media is their website, which has been hacked many times. I don't know how much u know, but even people who were in their technical (IT) teams where hiding scared of being jailed ....
reaching students? which students?!! are you following bro? there was no protests in majority of universities of Iran in past few days -- Ameer kabeer had no protest!!! doesn't that make u think, why?!! what the fuck happened??!!! baba, they have been arresting every effective member of the movements, putting them in jail, threatening them, u n I sitting outside BEHIND our fake ids and givin instructions ....
reaching students? which students?!! are you following bro? there was no protests in majority of universities of Iran in past few days -- Ameer kabeer had no protest!!! doesn't that make u think, why?!! what the fuck happened??!!! baba, they have been arresting every effective member of the movements, putting them in jail, threatening them, u n I sitting outside BEHIND our fake ids and givin instructions ....
I was there. They could not. You could not find 2 million people with the aim of taking over everything. Walking in a silent march that everyone thought was safe is very different from joining a militia to fight the regime with weapons. At best you could find a few hundreds who would be willing to risk their life for that purpose.
After a year of struggle, the lines among parties invloved, pro or foes, are drawn very clearly. Most important elements of this movement, people inside the country, have aligned themselves with leaders whom they trust they can deliver with least cost to them or to the country. A nation that had almost given up on any chance for prosperity rose up again. Carrying the movement from its inception to a maturity of today without letting the enemy kill it in its inception as it did several times over last 30 years from arm uprising of MEK, to refoms of Khatami has not been an easy and unplanned event. It has been carried skilfully so far. IMHO, we are heading for a Democratic republic or possibly Federal Republic of Iran but by taking calculated steps.
It goes without saying that Mousavi is far more trusted and listened to today than he was last year. Although, he call himself a member or a follower of this movement, yet, he is being treated as the leader that he shown to be. So, IMHO let's not waste our breath try to convince anyone of the obvious.
Others like the infamous "Nim Pahlavi" who incidently comes from a family of thieves from another era thought he probably could fish in muddy waters but after a while put his tail between his legs and crawl back to where he came from and same goes with the other foes of the Green and the people.
The fate of green are being decided inside the country.
Mousavi responded best...
It goes without saying that Mousavi is far more trusted and listened to today than he was last year. Although, he call himself a member or a follower of this movement, yet, he is being treated as the leader that he shown to be. So, IMHO let's not waste our breath try to convince anyone of the obvious.
Others like the infamous "Nim Pahlavi" who incidently comes from a family of thieves from another era thought he probably could fish in muddy waters but after a while put his tail between his legs and crawl back to where he came from and same goes with the other foes of the Green and the people.
The fate of green are being decided inside the country.
Mousavi responded best...
اما کف به کناری رود و از بين رود، اما آنچه به مردم سود میرساند در زمين میمانَد
and
نه تطاول نظامیان نه تجاوز حرامیان،نه خاک افشاندن در چشم مروت نه باد افکندن درآستین ژنده قدرت، نه تکیه بر سبعیت حیوانی نه حمله به علوم انسانی، نه مداحی مداحان مزدور نه شاعری شعر فروشان کم شعور ،هیچکدام قامت مقاومت را خم نخواهند کرد. استبداد دینی رسوای کفر و دین شده است. و در مزرع سبز جنبش هنگام دروی آن رسیده است. ما این را به دعا از خدا خواسته ایم وخدا با ماست.
ازنامه عبدالکریم سروش به آیت الله خامنه ای
ازنامه عبدالکریم سروش به آیت الله خامنه ای
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Mowj Aziz
I can not believe how scared some of you guys are of RP. You have to bring him into the discussion whenever there is a talk about a possible leadership and remind everyone that his father stole from Iran.
I find it interesting that you still think that when it comes to RP Pahlavi, it is important to look at past.
Should we do it with Moussavi and Karubi to ? Should we look how they bent down and kiss the hands of Imam? Are you telling us all the Karubi's money came from the right sources and he never stole from Iranians ? Should we look at what Karubi and Moussavi did in early days of revolution?
It is just amazing how forgiving you have become toward these two figures and how judgmental you are toward someone else.
People will get tired of stagnant movement and will start to evaluate these two figures' work.
I know some of their hardcore supporters are even scared of setting goals and millstones for these guys in the fear of failure but a confused glorified leaderships can only survive for a short period of time by the help of gifted bloggers and writers.
Where is Khatami these days?
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