I never said Beckenbauer performed well because of his teammate, I said Germany needed both Muller and Beckenbauer to achieve what they did. Big difference in what I said.
And ofcourse u need the team to perform good and the most important of all you need tactics and defense. Platini, Zidane and the dutch master had a team and defense. Messi ofcourse had some good teammate but his team didnt have no tactics and defense and thats what went wrong against Germany. One individual cant change everything when the whole structure of team is wrong. It was more possible twenty years ago that one individual could do more with his magic. These days players are much stronger and coaches do their homework and tell their players to mark and defend, this is also true about NBA too.
And ofcourse u need the team to perform good and the most important of all you need tactics and defense. Platini, Zidane and the dutch master had a team and defense. Messi ofcourse had some good teammate but his team didnt have no tactics and defense and thats what went wrong against Germany. One individual cant change everything when the whole structure of team is wrong. It was more possible twenty years ago that one individual could do more with his magic. These days players are much stronger and coaches do their homework and tell their players to mark and defend, this is also true about NBA too.
I know WC is still important for many, but all these international sports gathering is fading away. WC and Olympic games were much more important to people and even to politicians before than now. Pre and post world war II was the most important time for pride and nationality as Nationalism was the hot topic specially among Europeans. The Cold War kept that hot issue in Olympic games from 50s through 70s as well. Unfortunately they are fading away and its mostly because of how the globe changes since a centuery ago. Most of us here live in western world. How many different race and different people from all over the world u guys see everyday?
Nationalism has became more of radicals than norms. When Italy have Balotelli in Azzuri and half of Germany team are polish or Turks, you clearly see whats happening. Also club competition has grown as industry to something huge. Just look at how much EPL is making money compare to twenty years ago.
We cant deny how importnat WC was during Meazza, Puskas or Pele and even in 80s but the importance is fading away and Club competition is replacing it. It might be sad but its the reality.
Nationalism has became more of radicals than norms. When Italy have Balotelli in Azzuri and half of Germany team are polish or Turks, you clearly see whats happening. Also club competition has grown as industry to something huge. Just look at how much EPL is making money compare to twenty years ago.
We cant deny how importnat WC was during Meazza, Puskas or Pele and even in 80s but the importance is fading away and Club competition is replacing it. It might be sad but its the reality.
Spain has been the most dominant national team of the past 4 years and Xavi has been their key player and their team was built around him. Anyway, hurry up or please tell us who Spain's dominant player is(Casillas btw doesn't count since a guy that gets 3 shots on goal a game shouldn't be it...but even if, ok, please go head and make Casillas the greatest player of all time..LOL). Otherwise, just accept and admit that your rating is inconsistent and we shouldn't take seriously whatever you say and move it to "just came in" thread
Yeah alright, my Deco obsession and your Robinho obsession. lol. At least Deco has 2 CL titles
Yeah alright, my Deco obsession and your Robinho obsession. lol. At least Deco has 2 CL titles
You are turning this debate into a debate about undividual players. If we take individual players in Spain squad, the most important one is Xavi. Hence, please, go ahead, answer my question. If you can't answer it, please tell us not to take anything you say in any way seriously.Thanks!
Btw. Zidane might just be the most overrated "great" player in the history of sports but anyway.
Btw. Zidane might just be the most overrated "great" player in the history of sports but anyway.
Dear byebyenow:
Let me first summarize what we seem to agree about:
1. Messi has been the greatest club level player for the last three years,
2. Messi did not perform well at the WC
You then make 4 assertions:
1. Olympics are not as important as they once were
2. WC is not as important as it once was
3. Messi did not perform well because his teammates were not as good as some of the other greatest of all times
4. Messi did not perform well because his coach wasn't any good
My response was as follows:
1. Olympics are irrelevant to this disucssion.
2. I disagree, ask any of the Spanish Read Madrid or Barcelona players what their biggest achievement is, and I bet most will say winning the WC. Also the number of people watching the WC final around the world is higher than any club level game
3. I disagree, messi's team mates were better than Zidane's in 98, or Platini's in 82 or Uzebio's in 66
4. Perhaps his coach was not great, but this is when the greatest players show up. If an ignorant person like me had coached France in 98, perhaps they would not have won the WC, but I will bet you even my incompetence could not have stopped Zidane from shining.
In any case, I predict Messi will have a great next WC, and he willl be mentioned about the greatest of all time. Today he simply cannot be
Let me first summarize what we seem to agree about:
1. Messi has been the greatest club level player for the last three years,
2. Messi did not perform well at the WC
You then make 4 assertions:
1. Olympics are not as important as they once were
2. WC is not as important as it once was
3. Messi did not perform well because his teammates were not as good as some of the other greatest of all times
4. Messi did not perform well because his coach wasn't any good
My response was as follows:
1. Olympics are irrelevant to this disucssion.
2. I disagree, ask any of the Spanish Read Madrid or Barcelona players what their biggest achievement is, and I bet most will say winning the WC. Also the number of people watching the WC final around the world is higher than any club level game
3. I disagree, messi's team mates were better than Zidane's in 98, or Platini's in 82 or Uzebio's in 66
4. Perhaps his coach was not great, but this is when the greatest players show up. If an ignorant person like me had coached France in 98, perhaps they would not have won the WC, but I will bet you even my incompetence could not have stopped Zidane from shining.
In any case, I predict Messi will have a great next WC, and he willl be mentioned about the greatest of all time. Today he simply cannot be
No no, nice try! Either Spain plays as a team or their game is built around Xavi! You have to make up your mind or else we will consider you a hypocrite and none of us will take anything you say seriously. If Spain plays as a team, then you don't even have a case here. If their game is built around Xavi then you'll be a hypocrite. Your decision!
Sorry but you can't really be serious about this. Platini in 82 was part of one of the great midfields in history, he still had Giresse, Tigana, Tresor in defense if I'm right. Just based on individual help it was better. Zidane in 98 had a defensive line that in 25 games didn't lose a single game, with Deschamps had a 2x with 2 teams CL winner and one of the great defensive midfelders of his era, Djorkaeff etc. in fact, what did Zidane do at the World Cup until the final? He didn't play the 2nd round, the quarter finals were a 0-0 draw againt Italy, aainst Croatia Thuram scored twice ad otherwise France were a but helpless so, what exactly dd he do? His team was good enough to carry him through and in the final he scored twice from corners. Really? Messi had to drop deep into his own half to get the ball. WTF is he supposed to do?
Ok, I forgot, Spain was the first nation ever playing with 11 and before that football was actually more ike tennis
I don't get it Sly jun, why do you come here to dscuss things? Obviously, you have a very narrow minded view and you don't like being told you are wrong, hence "az kure dar miri".
Again, your argument and that of Pele is based on individual talent. For you football is and has never been about a team but more about a fascist playmaker ruling things, prbably because your own upbringing was also in a narrow minded dictatorial system based on individualism. So, all I'm asking you is to be either consistent in your own world view or drop it and see the light. If you have finally seen the light and realized that football is about 11 players +3 subs and even the greatest individual talent not in the right team setup can't wrk well, you're very welcome. Bu given that you're very slow and don't get things, I really doubt it
No no, nice try! Either Spain plays as a team or their game is built around Xavi! You have to make up your mind or else we will consider you a hypocrite and none of us will take anything you say seriously. If Spain plays as a team, then you don't even have a case here. If their game is built around Xavi then you'll be a hypocrite. Your decision!
I don't get it Sly jun, why do you come here to dscuss things? Obviously, you have a very narrow minded view and you don't like being told you are wrong, hence "az kure dar miri".
Again, your argument and that of Pele is based on individual talent. For you football is and has never been about a team but more about a fascist playmaker ruling things, prbably because your own upbringing was also in a narrow minded dictatorial system based on individualism. So, all I'm asking you is to be either consistent in your own world view or drop it and see the light. If you have finally seen the light and realized that football is about 11 players +3 subs and even the greatest individual talent not in the right team setup can't wrk well, you're very welcome. Bu given that you're very slow and don't get things, I really doubt it
So do we really want to list all their teammates one by one and compare them? Just from the top of my head Messi had Gonzalo Higuaín and Carlos Tevex along side him. Those are good players. To say his teammates were so bad that he could not perform is just not correct. He had to go the miefield to get the ball, and what is he supposed to do? Do what Maradona, Pele, George Best or Pele would have done. At leasat take one all the way and score. I have seen him take one from midfield and score for Barcelona.
In 98, I thought France's worst game was the gmae against Paraguay in which Zidane did not play, becasuse of the red card the received due to his stupid foul against Saudi Arabia. he did not score any goals until the final, but I thought he was the star and the general on the field in every game, including the Italy 0-0 tie.
In 98, I thought France's worst game was the gmae against Paraguay in which Zidane did not play, becasuse of the red card the received due to his stupid foul against Saudi Arabia. he did not score any goals until the final, but I thought he was the star and the general on the field in every game, including the Italy 0-0 tie.
Ok, I forgot, Spain was the first nation ever playing with 11 and before that football was actually more ike tennis
I don't get it Sly jun, why do you come here to dscuss things? Obviously, you have a very narrow minded view and you don't like being told you are wrong, hence "az kure dar miri".
Again, your argument and that of Pele is based on individual talent. For you football is and has never been about a team but more about a fascist playmaker ruling things, prbably because your own upbringing was also in a narrow minded dictatorial system based on individualism. So, all I'm asking you is to be either consistent in your own world view or drop it and see the light. If you have finally seen the light and realized that football is about 11 players +3 subs and even the greatest individual talent not in the right team setup can't wrk well, you're very welcome. Bu given that you're very slow and don't get things, I really doubt it
I don't get it Sly jun, why do you come here to dscuss things? Obviously, you have a very narrow minded view and you don't like being told you are wrong, hence "az kure dar miri".
Again, your argument and that of Pele is based on individual talent. For you football is and has never been about a team but more about a fascist playmaker ruling things, prbably because your own upbringing was also in a narrow minded dictatorial system based on individualism. So, all I'm asking you is to be either consistent in your own world view or drop it and see the light. If you have finally seen the light and realized that football is about 11 players +3 subs and even the greatest individual talent not in the right team setup can't wrk well, you're very welcome. Bu given that you're very slow and don't get things, I really doubt it
BTW, do you know that if Argentina wins this WC, they will just have reached the third best country in the world? Only then I might, JUST MIGHT consider them as a serious football nation. BTW, That would mean Messi will have won his first WC too and only needs 2 more to reach the greatest of all times! Just a reminder... 1. Irrelevent or not that was an example which both Olympic and WC are international events. There are many connection between two if we want to discuss about the importance of these events became less than before.
2. if I could just go talk to any Spanish National team player I would have been on my way already
Akhe eenam shod Daleel?
So the truth is you dont know but you think it is true and you are willing to gamble on it. Yes there is good chance they say it was, Spain finally won the WC after many bad lucks in past. So yes they can say it was the greatest achievment because they end that curse for the team and country. Also except Casillas and Barca players none of them won that many trophies anyway so yes it could have been their best achievment. And Barca players would say "see we won without Messi" lol. But let me tell u what players have actually said before. When Materazzi won the CL he said that was the most important thing for him to win, he is the guy who scored in the WC final. Inzaghi has said his happiest day in his life was the 2007 CL Final. Del Piero has said the two goals that he loves the most was one in Italy vs Germany goal and another in Juventus vs Boca Junior World club match. He has said the most important thing he has won was the 96Cl and the WC. Totti who only have one scudetto and few Coppa slept with WC trophy. So you see players have different thoughts.
WC gets watched more because people who dont watch football all of the sudden they start watching the events. Its hyped out, most countries provide the matches on their basic channels that most people have access to. Its not like that for club games to that degree. All in all none of the two reason u said prove that the importance of the WC hasnt drop? I dont see anywhere that argument shows it hasnt even if the importance the same its not the same quality as before nomore.
How many quality team with quality matches we watched from last WC? How many good matches you see in CL or EPL or even Serie A every week?
3. Are you ok bro? France 98 was one of the most complete National Team of World Cups. Mahdi said it the best. If you had said Zidane in 06 it would have been little bit better but not by much. Thuram, Viera, Makelele and Ribery also had a lot to do with France making it to Final.
I never said Messi didnt have good players with him. I said the team was not built right. There was no playmaker nor defense. Football is about balance not ten players attacking with one goalie in the back. Just look at France in 98, it was just complete from defense to attack. Do you see the picture now?
4. no logic in that. We would never know what would have happened. But Im sure it could have turned out like 2002 and 2010.
2. if I could just go talk to any Spanish National team player I would have been on my way already
Akhe eenam shod Daleel?
So the truth is you dont know but you think it is true and you are willing to gamble on it. Yes there is good chance they say it was, Spain finally won the WC after many bad lucks in past. So yes they can say it was the greatest achievment because they end that curse for the team and country. Also except Casillas and Barca players none of them won that many trophies anyway so yes it could have been their best achievment. And Barca players would say "see we won without Messi" lol. But let me tell u what players have actually said before. When Materazzi won the CL he said that was the most important thing for him to win, he is the guy who scored in the WC final. Inzaghi has said his happiest day in his life was the 2007 CL Final. Del Piero has said the two goals that he loves the most was one in Italy vs Germany goal and another in Juventus vs Boca Junior World club match. He has said the most important thing he has won was the 96Cl and the WC. Totti who only have one scudetto and few Coppa slept with WC trophy. So you see players have different thoughts.
WC gets watched more because people who dont watch football all of the sudden they start watching the events. Its hyped out, most countries provide the matches on their basic channels that most people have access to. Its not like that for club games to that degree. All in all none of the two reason u said prove that the importance of the WC hasnt drop? I dont see anywhere that argument shows it hasnt even if the importance the same its not the same quality as before nomore.
How many quality team with quality matches we watched from last WC? How many good matches you see in CL or EPL or even Serie A every week?
3. Are you ok bro? France 98 was one of the most complete National Team of World Cups. Mahdi said it the best. If you had said Zidane in 06 it would have been little bit better but not by much. Thuram, Viera, Makelele and Ribery also had a lot to do with France making it to Final.
I never said Messi didnt have good players with him. I said the team was not built right. There was no playmaker nor defense. Football is about balance not ten players attacking with one goalie in the back. Just look at France in 98, it was just complete from defense to attack. Do you see the picture now?
4. no logic in that. We would never know what would have happened. But Im sure it could have turned out like 2002 and 2010.
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Argentina has probably the best attacking line-up in the world but they have no balance as byebyenow points out. The country's best fullback is still Zanetti and he's 38. Argentina doesn't have a single defender at any top5 club Except for Mascherano and Zanetti. They have 1 centeal midfielder in Banega at a Spanish top4 team and he wasn't even at the world cup. How can you compare that with a team in 98 that had the most balanced team and 4 defenders that were hands down the best in their respective leagues?
And sorry, the belief that Pele was just a genius and didn't rely on his teams tactical advantage is a myth and simply not true. I highly recommend you to order inverting the pyramide by Jonathan Wilson and read about Bela Gutmann, his influence on Brazilian football and hiw Brazil by playing zonal defense instead of man-marking and with 4 defenders had already a huge tactical advantage over any European team in the 60ies. It wasn't just Pele being great, it was his whole team. Just look at how Carlos Alberto takes advantage of Italy's manmarking and Facchetti being out of position to score the famous goal.
Fact is that despite individual talent football has always been a game played by 11 players and teams that were tactically more advanced faired better than others. Even Maradona despite his individual brilliance wouldn't have won the World Cup without Bilardo's 3-5-1-1 and limiting Maradona's focus mainly on the final third.
And sorry, the belief that Pele was just a genius and didn't rely on his teams tactical advantage is a myth and simply not true. I highly recommend you to order inverting the pyramide by Jonathan Wilson and read about Bela Gutmann, his influence on Brazilian football and hiw Brazil by playing zonal defense instead of man-marking and with 4 defenders had already a huge tactical advantage over any European team in the 60ies. It wasn't just Pele being great, it was his whole team. Just look at how Carlos Alberto takes advantage of Italy's manmarking and Facchetti being out of position to score the famous goal.
Fact is that despite individual talent football has always been a game played by 11 players and teams that were tactically more advanced faired better than others. Even Maradona despite his individual brilliance wouldn't have won the World Cup without Bilardo's 3-5-1-1 and limiting Maradona's focus mainly on the final third.