French ban on the burqa

[raminio05]

JSP jan,

In Islam and in its 'holy book' there is no mention of this Burqa type of cover for women. Its only fraction of "fundamentalists" in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan,etc that you see some women wearing Burqa. Whereas millions of other muslim women wear ordinary cover and none of religious authorities have ruled against regular cover, in favour of Burqa.

And there are only few hundres of Burqa-wearing women in France. According to official stats. So its not "thousands"..

+ when even in majority of Islamic countries, Burqa is not majority or official tradition of covering the face, not sure why France(wt completely diff culture) has to allow this emerging type of face-cover in their country?!

What right do they have to ban it but at the same time beat their chests and proclaim that theres freedom of expression and religion? The only real argument that could be made here is that it should be banned in certain places where covering your face and not being identifiable poses a great and immediate danger to peopel, such as in a courthouse or something.

 

[Natural]

JSP jan,

In Islam and in its 'holy book' there is no mention of this Burqa type of cover for women. Its only fraction of "fundamentalists" in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan,etc that you see some women wearing Burqa. Whereas millions of other muslim women wear ordinary cover and none of religious authorities have ruled against regular cover, in favour of Burqa.

And there are only few hundres of Burqa-wearing women in France. According to official stats. So its not "thousands"..

+ when even in majority of Islamic countries, Burqa is not majority or official tradition of covering the face, not sure why France(wt completely diff culture) has to allow this emerging type of face-cover in their country?!

"The government estimates between 350 and 2,000 women cover their faces in France, out of a total Muslim population between four and six million."

Seems like unnecessary legislation and just petty "populism" to me.

 

[Natural]

people here are making the mistake of confusing what they like or dont like with whether the state has the right to dictate what people should or should not wear.

I dont like many things but I dont think my taste should be passed as a legislation. what is the difference of that with what IRI is doing telling women they should wear hijab in public.

 

[Farsi Zaban]

Macy's and other private places have the right to set their own dress codes as they please and if anyone doesn't like it they can choose not to work there.

The government on the other hand has to show just cause for prohibiting and disallowing certain attire or practices in the governmental offices or in public places.

As far as the "niqab" is concerned I don't think the government has any just cause to ban it from public places unless purely for the purpose of identification. Otherwise they would have to ban sunglasses, hats, caps, wigs, scarves, ear muffs, face masks worn by people who have cold or are afraid to catch a cold, and even heavy makeup.

What is a government's just cause for enforcing wearing chador and other clown outfits in public offices and places?

 

[R.BAGGIO]

people here are making the mistake of confusing what they like or dont like with whether the state has the right to dictate what people should or should not wear.

I dont like many things but I dont think my taste should be passed as a legislation. what is the difference of that with what IRI is doing telling women they should wear hijab in public.

The difference is that the French believe in the republican values of liberty and equality. The burqa is in direct opposition to equality. They have a right as all people to have values like all nations do and these values will be reflected in their laws, you simply cannot separate the two. The problem with IRI is that most people in Iran do not hold these values and they are only enforced by thugs. In France most or at least a lot of people feel it is not 'French' for women to cover their face as it goes against their values.

What I am saying is that there can be an argument made for this law but I believe it is not an enforceable law and from a practical point of view it will make things worse rather than better in terms of racial harmony. I also believe the French and the world will look back at these laws as nothing more than ignorant Islamophobia in a couple of decades.

 

[lordofmordor]

Enforcing this law will only create fundamentalism and more muslim sympathizers towards them. I will do more bad than good. What the law should do is make sure those who dont want to wear it are not forced to wear it whether children or adults.

 

[Natural]

The difference is that the French believe in the republican values of liberty and equality.

liberty and equality would mean that everyone can practice their religion in any way they want, as long as they are not harming anyone.


That's why I agree with the part of the law that fine and jail the men that force their women and daughter to put the burqa on. but disagree 100% with the part that makes it illegal for someone that has freely chosen to wear the burqa. because that goes against liberty and equality that you are talking about here.

 

[a123321r]

jsp.. i can't imagine ever stepping into wales so i don't really care! lol

btw lol @ ashtar.. he is spending all this time saying france have banned the wrong thing when they never actually specifically banned burqas.. what they did is ban face covering but then put some exceptions to it so that it just targets burqas so yeah the basis of your whole argument is flawed as usual!

 

[Niloufar]

What right do they have to ban it but at the same time beat their chests and proclaim that theres freedom of expression and religion? The only real argument that could be made here is that it should be banned in certain places where covering your face and not being identifiable poses a great and immediate danger to peopel, such as in a courthouse or something.

Thats the thing, in ISLAM there is no mandate or mention of Burga! so one cannot claim its purely on Religious-basis!
I agree the first places they should ban is public places and where it requires identification(govt offices, courts). last year France tried to ban them from public places, and the very same argument was posed here and elsewhere!

"The government estimates between 350 and 2,000 women cover their faces in France, out of a total Muslim population between four and six million."

Seems like unnecessary legislation and just petty "populism" to me.

wow less than %1 of muslim population in France wear Burga and u call it "populism"?! I wonder why %99.9 of other muslims dont wear it or cry out loud against it?! bc they know its NOT part of their religious law to argue to respect/disrespect it!

Frances traditions and cultural values are not set in stone. They are determined by the people that live and work there, including those that wear Hijab. And as far as people "asking them if they wanted to", this is something that they have brought upon themselves. They went into a bunch of countries (Africa etc.), fucked those countries over, went on a guilt trip and started shipping the citizens of those countries to France without any idea on whether their current and future economy could handle the influx, and tried to force them to assimilate while most of them couldn't find jobs or money to support their families. So yes, they were asked about it. Now they have to deal with the fact that a large part of their population (CITIZENS, that have just as much right to be there and live the way that they want as others) doesn't completely agree with the old school idea of "french culture" and "identity".

And trust me Behrooz, if it was about asking the majority about who should stay or go , you and I would be packed on a plane and shipped back to Iran. This is not how a free country is supposed to be. This is not liberté, égalité, fraternité.

well this law was discussed and passed in France Parliament. Of whom, the MPs are voted by majority of French citizens. so everyone, including muslim citizens of France, have a say on the MPs they elect and ultimately the laws that they pass.

In fact, IF there were considerable number of Burqa-wearing citizens or if all muslim citizens of France would protest, then easily there would be a referendum on this issue. but the fact is, there was not much reaction within muslim community in France bc they too dont want to be associated with fanatics of their community and really there is no such tradition based on their religious law.

 

[Natural]

wow less than %1 of muslim population in France wear Burga and u call it "populism"?! I wonder why %99.9 of other muslims dont wear it or cry out loud against it?! bc they know its NOT part of their religious law to argue to respect/disrespect it!

It's none of my or your business to judge if burqa is or is not part of the religion. that's besides the point. State is not a religious institution to right the wrongs regarding how to practice a religion. if someone is stupid enough to choose to wear that on their face, then so be it, freedom also includes being free to be stupid.

I dont like burqa and I wish it didn't exist, but that's one thing to have that as your preference and another to pass your preference as law and force other people to do what you think is right.

 

[a123321r]

natural jaan, the point is it is a possible security threat, it's not actually part of islam, banning it does not really hurt anyone (don't say if they really believe that they have to do it for their god, then this hurts their feelings... because then at least it would have to be part of the religion that they claim to follow but it's not - this one is not even really debatable in islam like maybe the concept of hijab itself - then it's just their own stupid belief rather than their religion and a stupid belief which does not bring any benefit to them, may have actually been forced upon them even if they don't admit it or maybe even not realise it AND is a security threat AND the huge majority of the country don't want to see it.. then i think it's right to ban it and it's completely democratic!

 

[General Parsaian]

فرانسه کار ناشایستی نکرده
بر عکس کار خوبی هم کرده ایت بر طبق اماری که گرفته شده تنها 2000 نفر هستند که نقاب می زنند
از این دوهزار نفر چند نفر فرانسوی الاصل هستند ده نفر ؟ بیست نفر ؟
خوب دها ملیون با این مخالف هستند
همانطور که مثلا در ایران یا سعودیه دها ملیون مخالف هستند که بعضی ها نیمه لخت در خیابان ها ظاهر شوند
انهایی هم که خوششان نمی اید بروند کشور خودشان
تازه در ایران ایرانی هایی هستند که دوست دارند نیمه لخت بگردند ولی در فرانسه چند نفر هستند که دوست دارند نقاب بزنند ؟


بله جانم

 

[payan]

general, right on, naghab zadand means one is against the society. can you imagine one day everone decides to cover their faces and come to street .

 

[payan]

it is not enforcing law ,if some group of people tomorrow decide it walking naked on street and claiming that is their religious so based on freedom of expression and religion then the law should be loosen up then.

 

[General Parsaian]

general, right on, naghab zadand means one is against the society. can you imagine one day everone decides to cover their faces and come to street .

جناب پایان
حالا اگر مثلا چند ملیون بودند انوقت می توانست گفت خوب ملیونها با این کار موافق هستند هرچند کار خوب یا بدی باشد
ولی وقتی در یک کشوری که سکولار است و قوانین خاص خود را دارد چند صد نفر بر خلاف دیگران عمل می کنند به نظر من این این درست نیست
البته منظورم در اماکن عام است
من تعجب میکنم اینها این همه در این مورد حساسیت نشان می دهند
مگر شما در کشورتان می گذارید یک فرانسوی بیایدو در خیابان از دوست دخترش لب بگیرد؟
یا در سواحلش توپلس شنا کند
مگر در همین امارات نبود که یک انگلیسی را به همین دلیل جریمه کردند
خوب هر کشوری قوانین خاص خودش را دارد و باید از ان قوانین پیروی کرد


متشکرم

 

[R.BAGGIO]

liberty and equality would mean that everyone can practice their religion in any way they want, as long as they are not harming anyone.


That's why I agree with the part of the law that fine and jail the men that force their women and daughter to put the burqa on. but disagree 100% with the part that makes it illegal for someone that has freely chosen to wear the burqa. because that goes against liberty and equality that you are talking about here.

It goes against equality because it is designed to subjugate women. If you say it goes against liberty I say it only gives women the liberty to submit or become subjugated which is the opposite of liberty.

There are actually some good logical arguments for the burqa ban or hijab ban in general ...

 

[payan]

general jan, i agree . but i believe with covering their faces actually they try to get attention and want to be different in society .
so i have giving an example , one day all french decide just for showing the outcome of something wrong and the effect of it ask the intire nation would come out to street with covering their face then they people realize how stupid that would be going out and eveyone covered faces .
sometimes those people should be shown if you really want to gain something foryour faith and believe they are much better way to do it .

 

[Meehandoost]

Macy's and other private places have the right to set their own dress codes as they please and if anyone doesn't like it they can choose not to work there.

The government on the other hand has to show just cause for prohibiting and disallowing certain attire or practices in the governmental offices or in public places.

As far as the "niqab" is concerned I don't think the government has any just cause to ban it from public places unless purely for the purpose of identification. Otherwise they would have to ban sunglasses, hats, caps, wigs, scarves, ear muffs, face masks worn by people who have cold or are afraid to catch a cold, and even heavy makeup.

Since you seem to be such an advocate of "just cause" and at the same time such a vocal proponent of the Islamic republic, as strange as it may be to have "just" and Islamic republic in the same sentence, have you made the same case with your favourite government? Have you asked why they deprive people of their freedom of speech, belief, assembly, labour unions, press, not to mention their choice of attire free from the forced Hijab? It's not that I have anything against freedom of expression, rather just that I'm allergic to hypocrisy! If you feel so obligated to write long essays in the defense of Islamist zealots, why do you not speak for the defenseless and voiceless of your own country, presuming you are Iranian, who are oppressed by this tyrant regime and its henchmen who are bereft of reason or accountability? What exactly is your motivation?

On the subject of Burqa however, it is evident as the mid day sun that this sexist, outdated practice belongs in the trash bin of history. No one, were they to be educated, would defend, accept or acquiesce this medieval, this barbaric practice that aims to subjugate one half of the population while putting the entire responsibility of human decency on their shoulders. What reason can there be in this that men can do as they please and all of modesty and propriety rests with women who often are left without a voice? How can anyone in good conscience, however remotely and indirectly, defend such pathetic practice under any guise or justification? I am anxious to learn!

 

[Behrooz_C]

Of course they should have the right to advocate and fight for their rights Behrooz. I mean, we even have sanctioned KKK parades here, and the majority see them as idiots but they still have the protection of the law to express themselves.

I'm sure that the majority in most of these countries are also offended at seeing people with mohawks and septum piercings too, but it doesn't mean that those things should be banned.

Frances traditions and cultural values are not set in stone. They are determined by the people that live and work there, including those that wear Hijab. And as far as people "asking them if they wanted to", this is something that they have brought upon themselves. They went into a bunch of countries (Africa etc.), fucked those countries over, went on a guilt trip and started shipping the citizens of those countries to France without any idea on whether their current and future economy could handle the influx, and tried to force them to assimilate while most of them couldn't find jobs or money to support their families. So yes, they were asked about it. Now they have to deal with the fact that a large part of their population (CITIZENS, that have just as much right to be there and live the way that they want as others) doesn't completely agree with the old school idea of "french culture" and "identity".

And trust me Behrooz, if it was about asking the majority about who should stay or go , you and I would be packed on a plane and shipped back to Iran. This is not how a free country is supposed to be. This is not liberté, égalité, fraternité.

ramin jan we have to agree to disagree on this issue. For me the issue of women covering their entire body stems from a prejuidice against women that has no place in a modern society of the 21st century. Sure many women may choose to do this, but you can't just accept it as "her right" without considering the origins of this practice. It stems from subjugation and belittling of women where they are treated as 2nd class citizens. It dehumanises them completely. They are only wearing this for one reason and one reason only: being women. Surely there is something deeply worrying about this, no? well it is to me.

 

[Natural]

It goes against equality because it is designed to subjugate women. If you say it goes against liberty I say it only gives women the liberty to submit or become subjugated which is the opposite of liberty.

There are actually some good logical arguments for the burqa ban or hijab ban in general ...

What if someone chooses to wear it by her free will but the law forbiddens her from doing so? isn't that against liberty?
people should be allowed to be stupid as long as they dont harm anyone else. if you want to correct every wrong in all religions and traditions, where do you draw the line? it's a slippery slope.

As I said, I am against it when a woman is forced to wear it by her husband or father, and this law punishes those men more harshly than the women, and I'm totally for that part of the law, I dont believe anyone should be forced to do something against their will.

BUT There are people who choose to wear it by their free will, I think it's a stupid decision but that's my opinion, who am I to tell anyone to do what I think is right.. they should be free to choose. taking away that choice is against liberty.