islam & quran or ghoran or whatever you would like to call it !!!

[^İNDİANA JONES^]

please allow me a few hours to get home from work i will read your post thoroughly and put my input.

Always a pleasure having a discussion with you, always a learning process.

chakerim dadash rahat bash.khodeto mogayed nakon ke sari benevisi. manam ta chand sate dige beram sare kar shifti kar mikonam.shayad manam ta pas farda natunam benevisam.dar zamn merci az lotfet keyvan jan.dadashe mani rahemun yekie hamishe.ma take take hamemun sarbazhae kucheke sepahe KUROSHE KABİRİM DAR SALE 2010 miladi.


BE OMİDE NABUDİE TAMAME PALİDİHA...

 

[^İNDİANA JONES^]

i was in a debate one time where someone took out the Qoran and kept reading the lines that said that there will be others coming with information that will amount to what is marjah taghalid.

[/QUOTE





K.ram tu d.hane MARJAH TAGHLİD

 

[^İNDİANA JONES^]

Where in Qoran says to advance with time. Have heard that before from others. That by itself will make Qoran obsolete. So, the 1 god, puts out his book to give instruction 1400 years ago, then says advance with time and now you are on your own? I will never give you guys any updates?

i was in a debate one time where someone took out the Qoran and kept reading the lines that said that there will be others coming with information that will amount to what is marjah taghalid. He kept reading the line and the believers kept on coming up with reasons that could mean something else.

We dont need Qoran to tell us to advance with time. The universe is expanding, is dynamic, and not absolute. There is nothing absolute about it. A 1400 years old book cannot possibly be able to explain it. It cannot be explained. New part of the world, and therefore world is being created.

We dont need so many mosques and churches and religious clerics and others having to work so hard to keep people believing in their philosophy.

God's words are in front of you in everyday as the world expands. It is in the living and dying, and it is within you. No book is needed. No religion is needed. Nature is the religion and the book of god.

give me time ı will give your answer farda ya pasfarda.now ı have to go to work as ı said to keyvan.but you can write ı will read your messages than ı will give your answers later.

thanx...

 

[Motori]

Motori Jaan,

I beg to differ my friend. I think, with a mob like those in charge of our government, they could have come up with same stuff even if Hinduism or Budhism was our official religion.
Just look at how BJP in India is using Hinduism to incite hatred to gain political advantage! I know they might not be as good as mullahs yet. But be sure hadn't it been for the safeguards Brits left in Indian system, they would have surely proven their skills.

Also if you look at our own Zoroasrian texts, they do have all the above you listed in them. So Mobeds of Sassanids did the same as mullahs of our time. In fact, I think most of stuff in Islam, like HEIZ or NEFAS or how to do this or that, are some sort of adaptations from Zorostrianism, and not so surprisingly by Persians like Ghazali etc. Arabs were too uneducated to devise all those sorts of rules. Again, I rever you to the book of contracts in book of Vendidad where women is considered as an object of contract and flogging is considered punishments:

http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd4sbe.htm

44. If men of the same faith, either friends or brothers, come to an agreement together, that one may obtain from the other, either goods31, or a wife32, or knowledge33, let him who desires goods have them delivered to him; let him who desires a wife receive and wed her; let him who desires knowledge be taught the holy word,

(32) Woman is an object of contract, like cattle or fields: she is disposed of by contracts of the fifth sort, being more valuable than cattle and less so than fields. She is sold by her father or her guardian, often from the cradle. 'Instances are not wanting of the betrothal of a boy of three years of age to a girl of two' (see Dosabhoy Framjee's work on The Parsees, p. 77; cf. 'A Bill to Define and Amend the Law relating to Succession, Inheritance, Marriage, &c.,' Bombay, 1864).


34. O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If a man smite another so that the blood come, what is the penalty that he shall pay? Ahura Mazda answered: 'Fifty stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, fifty stripes with the Sraosho-charana;

'The second time, seventy stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, seventy stripes with the Sraosho-charana;

'The third time, ninety stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, ninety stripes with the Sraosho-charana;

35. If a man commit that deed for the fourth time, without having atoned for the preceding, what penalty shall he pay? Ahura Mazda answered: 'He is a Peshotanu: two hundred stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, two hundred stripes with the Sraosho-charana.'

36. O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If a man smite another so that the blood come, and if he refuse to atone for it, what penalty shall he pay? Ahura Mazda answered: 'He is a Peshotanu: two hundred stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, two hundred stripes with the Sraosho-charana.'

37. O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If a man smite another so that he break a bone, what is the penalty that he shall pay? Ahura Mazda answered: 'Seventy stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, seventy stripes with the Sraosho-charana;

'The second time, ninety stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, ninety stripes with the Sraosho-charana;

38. If he commit that deed for the third time, without having atoned for the preceding, what penalty shall he pay? Ahura Mazda answered: 'He is a Peshotanu: two hundred stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, two hundred stripes with the Sraosho-charana.'

39. O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If a man smite another so that he break a bone, and if he refuse to atone for it, what is the penalty he shall pay? Ahura Mazda answered: 'He is a Peshotanu: two hundred stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, two hundred stripes with the Sraosho-charana.'

40. O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If a man smite another so that he give up the ghost, what is the penalty that he shall pay? Ahura Mazda answered: 'Ninety stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, seventy stripes with the Sraosho-charana;

41. If he commit that deed again, without having atoned for the preceding, what is the penalty that he shall pay? Ahura Mazda answered: 'He is a Peshotanu: two hundred stripes with the Aspahe-ashtra, two hundred stripes with the Sraosho-charana.'

Dear Referee, Sir.
You never miss an opportunity to lash the Zoroastrianism which is considered by many Iranians as heritage by. It is OK though, b/c I never claimed any religion being just or even authentic.

You mentioned the thugs inside barbaric republic abusing Islime to push their own agenda fwd, implying religion has nothing to do with their atrocities.
My good friend, Fox always prefers live chicken and fresh eggs and religion is the only "loop whole" providing access to fox to penetrate into our den and steal our hens.

Allah in quran emphasizes in unity numerous times and yet there are over 700 different mazhabs and cults all branched out of Islime and most thirsty for the blood of believers of the other branches, you know why? b/c Islime is vauge, blurry and contadictory to its own teachins, which almost any one with a tad of command in arabic language can translate, turn and twist any verse to his/her own desire and ill intention.

No doubt many people around the world feel happy, secure and wholesome human being by clinging to their faith, I have no problem with that as long as they keep it to themselves and don't make me listen to their "ar ar" 5/3 times a day, specially the one in 04:30 in the morning, also don't implement their barbaric laws in my society and generate an state sanctioned apartheid envirolment in 21st century. What Zorostrianism did 4000 years ago can not and should not be a justification for atricities of other dominant religions, particulary Islime.

BTW: Violence, bloodshed, execution, lashing, imprisonment, kidknapping, assassination, cutting limbs, stoning to death and gender apartheid are all forbidden in Buddhist based beilves.

 

[Chinaski]

But if someone is right he is right motoriye aziz. We are suffering from islam but fact is islam is just the last piece of a series of religions that always influenced eachother in the middle east. Actually alot of the shit we are seeing in Islam has been seen in Zoroastrianism and Judaism, Christianity also is a mixture of these two, and islam is a ghaaraash mish of all of them. Hamashoono bezaari roo ham moftam nemiarzan. Sure zartosht himself was not a bad man, he was an advanced philosopher but unfortunately even Avesta is not gonna help you get through your complex life of today. Even in Avesta you find bullshit conversations and suggestion made by Ahura Mazda. People should really start widening their horizon a little bit. Be it islam, christianity, zoroastrianism, judaism,... its all khoraafaat o noon dooni. Even that dolaa raast shodan of moslems 5 times a day, is a zoroastrian ritual. Moslems just stole it from that religion just like alot of other things that they just copied from judaism and christianity. Hamash noon dooni bood fadaat sham. Today you can live a hell of a life and you dont need avesta, quran, bible or what the heck ever useless so called god sent book.

 

[Bache Tehroon]

اقرا بسم ربک الذی خلق

نوکر بابام غلام سیاه. خودت بخون. من وقت ندارم

 

[Ardesheer]

vakhti be ye mazhabi gir midim hich dast avardi az in ghaziye nadarim.all religions are valuable for me because as quran says-------------------------(maide 48)



و ما اين كتاب [=قرآن] را به حق به سوى تو فرو فرستاديم در حالى كه تصديق‏كننده كتابهاى پيشين و حاكم بر آنهاست پس ميان آنان بر وفق آنچه خدا نازل كرده حكم كن و از هواهايشان [با دور شدن] از حقى كه به سوى تو آمده پيروى مكن براى هر يك از شما [امتها] شريعت و راه روشنى قرار داده‏ايم و اگر خدا مى‏خواست‏شما را يك امت قرار مى‏داد ولى [خواست] تا شما را در آنچه به شما داده است بيازمايد پس در كارهاى نيك بر يكديگر سبقت گيريد بازگشت [همه] شما به سوى خداست آنگاه در باره آنچه در آن اختلاف مى‏كرديد آگاهتان خواهد كرد

Muslims speak of Quran as if it fell out of the sky. It is an undeniable fact that Mohammad did not leave a book, and the verses came at different times, and the book was put together years later. I don't even see how you can jump around this book and say what's before and after, when it was not Allah who decided the order of these words. Also, if Allah (or Mohammad) knew, Jesus did not really have a book, and there were different versions that others put together later. So, what previous book of Christinaity is Allah referring to? You cannot quote more than a few lines and yet avoid raising many issues and questions. Then this book challenges others to say one verse like it. Amazing!!!

 

[ashtar]

Ashtar, if that is what you believe, then why do you worship a god of bitter, hate, and revenge?

My god is not just the god of "bitter, hate, and revenge" but the god of love, peace, forgiveness and anything and everything in this or any other possible universe. My god is the god of deceit and honesty. It is the creator of Lucifer, Gabriel and Adam.

You and I perceive "hate and revenge" to be bad things because we are insignificant and limited beings in this vast universe. It is like an anaerobic microbe wondering what kind of a merciful god would create Oxygen that would cause the killing of anaerobes!

What is the difference between your god and Hitler, Changhiz, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Stalin, etc?

Are you serious? What is the difference between God and mortal beings? Perhaps what you mean is what is the difference between how my god rules and how those mortals used to rule?

They were all men of hate who either were worshipped or killed if their laws were not followed. They were very compassionate to people who served them.

And how were they different than any other ruler, governor or government in history of mankind? Can you name me one human society were the people who did not follow the laws, instead of being punished, were loved and rewarded by the rulers?

We are talking about a religion for humans. Such a religion ought to recognize human nature and its psyche and talk to it at a level that it can understand and comprehend. It is like an adult trying to teach a three-year old child to share his toys with his brother. The adult will use both threat of punishment if the child doesn't follow the teachings and the appeal of reward if the child does follow the teachings in a language that the child will understand. Now does this mean there is no difference in terms of IQ, strength, complexity, vision and other things between the child and the adult simply because the adult talks at the level that the child can understand?!

I can see how the followers of your god can rape, kill, torture since that is what their god talks of doing too.

And we see people who either believe in a different god or gods or simply don't believe in any god at all, day in and day out and throughout history do the same things.

Humans are capable of taking any peaceful or harmless thing, gesture, or words and use them as excuse for hate and violence. You can offer a gangster a beautiful flower as a gesture of peace and he can accuse you of suggesting he's soft or gay and thus beat the crap out of you just as he would have if you called him a derogatory name.

The creator of this universe, would not be a one of hate and revenge but one of love and compassion.

Says who? You? Based on what? I agree everyone can choose and imagine their god as they wish. But if your god and creator of this universe is not of hate and revenge then explain to me who is the creator of hate, revenge, torture, killing, deceit, lying, cheating, and suffering in this universe? Is there another creator in this universe or all these "negative" things simply the byproduct of your god's love and compassion?

It will not be one who wants to be worshipped and only then will have compassion.

You have got it backwards my friend. It is out of compassion that god wants to be worshipped not the other way around. You think a parent who rewards a child for following his/her advices and admonishes or punishes a child for breaking the rules does so because he/she needs the child’s loyalty when the parent could as easily go buy a dog that would follow his/her commands? If you don't see the compassion in the parent's attempt to discipline a child then I'm afraid this discussion is futile and will not lead much further.

 

[Ramin]

Originally Posted by Ashtar:

My god is not just the god of "bitter, hate, and revenge" but the god of love, peace, forgiveness...

:وقاحت، بیشرمی و دروغگویی، اولین لازمهٔ طرفداری از جمهوری اسهالی است​

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti9q3nLjDfg&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti9q3nLjDfg&feature=related[/ame]

 

[ashtar]

Originally Posted by Ashtar:

My god is not just the god of "bitter, hate, and revenge" but the god of love, peace, forgiveness...

:وقاحت، بیشرمی و دروغگویی، اولین لازمهٔ طرفداری از جمهوری اسهالی است​

چنان صدا و بوی گوز شما را کر و کور و مست کرده که هر جا صحبتی هم از شقیقه بشه باز شما بر میگردین و دم از بوی گوز میزنید
​

 

[Pahlevoon Nayeb]

چنان صدا و بوی گوز شما را کر و کور و مست کرده که هر جا صحبتی هم از شقیقه بشه باز شما بر میگردین و دم از بوی گوز میزنید
​

You ought to know, being a descendant of Gooz and ArAr!

 

[keyvan_pars]

چنان صدا و بوی گوز شما را کر و کور و مست کرده که هر جا صحبتی هم از شقیقه بشه باز شما بر میگردین و دم از بوی گوز میزنید​

ajab kos o sheri gofti be zaboon e heyvaanat, khodet nafahmidi che berese be baghiyeh ke zaboon e ghater o shotor ro mesle to salis balad nistan.

khafe khoone marg begiri fekr mikonam ham baraye khodet behtar basheh ham baraye baghiyeh.

what do you think ?

 

[Pahlevoon Nayeb]

One of the first necessities of being a follower of the Eshalic Republic of Treason is to blind oneself.

Followers of the Mullah regime talk a good talk, but then close their eyes to the brutality of the regime staring them in the face!

As I've always said, if you're a Moslem, or a Jew, a Christian, Bahai, Zartoshti, or Bhuddist, or simply don't believe in god, quit yapping about it and use it to improve YOUR OWN life!

This is where the Mullah rats got it all wrong and this is also how they will have destroyed Islam in Iran in the end.

When all is said and done, if these treasonous insects don't succeed in what Changiz and the Arabs hadn't (i.e. destroying a country by the name of Iran), the best case scenario for Islam would be a rebirth of the religion where NO ONE dares to tell ANYONE else whether, how, and when to believe in a higher being!

 

[Chinaski]

Baba tak sellooli chiye ke aadam vaghto energy sarfe aadam kardanesh kone. Systemesh aghab moondast, nemikeshe, saghfe fekro darko zehniatesh iniye ke mibinid.

 

[eshghi]

AghAyoon, please keep your discussions to the point and stop the personal insults.

 

[Ardesheer]

You have got it backwards my friend. It is out of compassion that god wants to be worshipped not the other way around. You think a parent who rewards a child for following his/her advices and admonishes or punishes a child for breaking the rules does so because he/she needs the child’s loyalty when the parent could as easily go buy a dog that would follow his/her commands? If you don't see the compassion in the parent's attempt to discipline a child then I'm afraid this discussion is futile and will not lead much further.

Parents don't ask their children to "worship" them. I have not seen any parents that ask their child to thank them and say good things about them ever, let alone five times a day. I am sure you know the meaning of that word. No sane person can equate "compasion" with "worship". I will let you worship me out of the compasion I have for you.

 

[The_Referee]

Dear Referee, Sir.
You never miss an opportunity to lash the Zoroastrianism which is considered by many Iranians as heritage by. It is OK though, b/c I never claimed any religion being just or even authentic.

Motori Jaan,

I do so because I am seeing a big flaw there. People hate Islam for right reasons but then fall into trap of how glorious Zoroastrianism was etc. etc. which is nothign but another great tool to be abused.

You mentioned the thugs inside barbaric republic abusing Islime to push their own agenda fwd, implying religion has nothing to do with their atrocities.

No Motori Jaan.

My point was they would use ANY religion at their disposal because religions as a whole are prone to be used and faulty. They might have served some purpose when human beings could not be motivated to fight or to stick together. Then nationalism (or better to say ultra nationalism - moderate form of nationalism is OK in my opinion) came and now we are in an era that we can be passionate about reasonable things and fight for them without the need to have strong and ultra radical ideologies.

My good friend, Fox always prefers live chicken and fresh eggs and religion is the only "loop whole" providing access to fox to penetrate into our den and steal our hens.

Exactly!
That is why I think there is no difference between Zoroastrianism or Islam for them. They use whatever that can fool masses. I do not think there is a difference between them in that respect. Just because one is used heavily badly today does not make the other better.

However, both of Zoroastrianism and Islam can be considered heritage and studied and be found interesting if you put them in the right context: cultural background and a bunch of ceremonies and folk stories, nothing more... So I am against bashing any of them or their followers. At the same time I have no trouble pointing out their flaws. I do so more for Zoroastrainism here because for Islam we know the flaws already but I think e of audience here are dillusioned that Zoroastrianism is any better!

Allah in quran emphasizes in unity numerous times and yet there are over 700 different mazhabs and cults all branched out of Islime and most thirsty for the blood of believers of the other branches, you know why? b/c Islime is vauge, blurry and contadictory to its own teachins, which almost any one with a tad of command in arabic language can translate, turn and twist any verse to his/her own desire and ill intention.

That is exactly where I think you, my friend, are very right but wrong at the same time. Religions as a whole are great tools in hands of blood thirsty. Islam is no differnent. I brought you examples of Zoroastrianism where our very own Islam has got flaws from, e.g. women status as object and lashes etc. I am sure if you dig enough you can find parallels in there. I have read and seen worst stuff in Bible about rape, murder etc. and will bring them out later.

No doubt many people around the world feel happy, secure and wholesome human being by clinging to their faith, I have no problem with that as long as they keep it to themselves and don't make me listen to their "ar ar" 5/3 times a day, specially the one in 04:30 in the morning, also don't implement their barbaric laws in my society and generate an state sanctioned apartheid envirolment in 21st century. What Zorostrianism did 4000 years ago can not and should not be a justification for atricities of other dominant religions, particulary Islime.

I guess the above is a response to thinking that I was even trying to justify Islam which I was not. I was just pointing out how religions could be used by political parties if they wish to and in that there is no difference between Islam or other religions. Also I wanted to point out how Zoroastrianism is actually base of many things we have in Islam today. So I was againt glorifying and divinifying Zoroastrianism, thinking that can be a good replacement for Islam. They are both religions. If you do not keep them at bay and let them interfere with politics, you will have IRI, Taliban, BJP etc.

BTW: Violence, bloodshed, execution, lashing, imprisonment, kidknapping, assassination, cutting limbs, stoning to death and gender apartheid are all forbidden in Buddhist based beilves.

I am sure one could find ways around it if they want to use it for political purposes. Just let Monk of Monks rule as a VF for ten years without any opposition.

 

[Ramin]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o[/ame]

 

[The_Referee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Watched it before many times.
However, thanks for sharing it again.
He was one of the greatest comdians of all time!

 

[ashtar]

He was one of the greatest comdians of all time!

I don't know about being one of the greatest but IMO he was hands down the best and smartest English speaking comedian ever that I know. I have heard and seen all his albums several times and still they sound as fresh and funny as hearing it the first time.