Islamic Renaissance

masoudA

Legionnaire
Oct 16, 2008
6,199
22
#1


As much as I think there is no reforming the Islamic Republic, I think Islam itself needs to be reformed – the sooner the better.
Also, as much as I think orgamized religions (all of them) are an obstacle between humans and whatever "God" is - I must admit, these religions are here for now and we must deal with them in a civilized manor.
The way I see it – Islamic clergies have long declared Islam a taboo over and beyond any debates or reforms, making any such suggestions impossible and punishable by death (as being at war with god). Now that we have the internet, I hope we can break this taboo, at least in the cyber space – in hopes to come up with certain aspects of Islam that must be reformed – in hopes that soon Islam will find it’s own version of Martin Luther.

Hence, I especially encourage participation of members who posses extensive knowledge on Islam and Islamic Rules to participate in this thread. Please note that my goal here is not to re-write the Qoran – but change and/or reform Islamic laws that are practiced but are not actually in the book or are in the book but open to interpretation.

Here are a few of my suggestions:
1- Do away with the “Unwritten Law” that a Moslem may not change religion.
2- Make 18 the official age for marriage.
3- Give equal rights to men and women on all aspects of social and judicial laws.
4- Revise Namaz to a more practical format – at least in Iran, nobody prays, and when people break the most fundamental aspect of a religion, they would have an easy time to break all other rules.
5- Do away with Haj or change the rituals and locations.
6- Do away with all sorts of Islamic Taxes – and make supporting the mosques totally voluntarily.
 
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ME

Elite Member
Nov 2, 2002
5,904
435
#2
A few more fundomental suggestions that improves Islam and makes all moslems jump to 22nd century overnight.

Free alcohol. Make aragh sagi mostahab.
no more than 2 women for any man, 1 legal and 1 under the table. Women can equally adopt 2 mates.
All beautiful girls must have short skirts, ugly fat ones better not.
All hairy moslem men should shave their beards, and chest of course.
All men should be peeing standing.
Ramadan should be shortened to 15 days with rooze from midnight to dawn.
Farting does not break vozoo anymore.
Dogs are ok as long as you promise walking them. Cats are bad.
No more lamb kalle pache va maghz va zaboon va sirab shirdoon. Pork is fine.
Israel is brother.
Akhunds should learn how to breakdance for people for ayyam e mobarak.
Namaz only once a week at the Sunday prayers. Should face back again to Jursaleem like early Islamic age. Every mosque should have an organ and a hallelujah chorus band.
Playboy is kosher for over 18.
Esraf halal ast!
All men should cover their hair for the next 1400 years to get even with women.
Salman Roshdie should be still killed but honored as the first true martyr.
Zanjeer zani and sine zani is prosecuated. Let people beshkan instead.
Khordan piaz ba abgoosht makrooh ast, particularly Akkeh onion.
They should cancel all current religious holidays. MoAvieh's birthday should be honored every year.
Painting and sculpturing is encouraged. Music and singing is a must. Tile work (particularly torquoise blue) is banned.
 
May 9, 2004
15,168
179
#3


As much as think there is no reforming the Islamic Republic, I think Islam itself needs to be reformed – the sooner the better.
Also, as much I think orgamized religions (all of them) are an obstacle between humans and whatever "God" is - I must admit, these religions are here for now and we must deal with them in a civilized manor.
The way I see it – Islamic clergies have long declared Islam a taboo over and beyond any debates or reforms, making any such suggestions impossible and punishable by death (as being at war with god). Now that we have the internet, I hope we can break this taboo, at least in the cyber space – in hopes to come up with certain aspects of Islam that must be reformed – in hopes that soon Islam will find it’s own version of Martin Luther.

Hence, I especially encourage participation of members who posses extensive knowledge on Islam and Islamic Rules to participate in this thread. Please note that my goal here is not to re-write the Qoran – but change and/or reform Islamic laws that are practiced but are not actually in the book or are in the book but open to interpretation.

Here are a few of my suggestions:
1- Do away with the “Unwritten Law” that a Moslem may not change religion.
2- Make 18 the official age for marriage.
3- Give equal rights to men and women on all aspects of social and judicial laws.
4- Revise Namaz to a more practical format – at least in Iran, nobody prays, and when people break the most fundamental aspect of a religion, they would have an easy time to break all other rules.
5- Do away with Haj or change the rituals and locations.
6- Do away with all sorts of Islamic Taxes – and make supporting the mosques totally voluntarily.
مسعود جان
اکثر قوانین اسلامی را نمی توان تغییر داد
البته برخی از تشریعات در برخی مواقع می توانند به صورتی غیر از انچه معمول است در اید ولی قوانین اساسی را در اسلام نمی توان عوض کرد
در مورد سئوال اول چنین قانونی از قوانیین اساسی نیست
در مورد سن ازدواج هم قانون خاصی وجود ندارد
در مورد مردو وزن اسلام برای هر کدام تکلیفی هایی مشخص کرده که نمی توان انرا بنا بر خواست جامعه عوض کرد
همچنین در مورد نمازو حج و زکات و خمس هم این ممکن نیست یعنی اگر به زور عملی هم شود یک نوع دیکتاتوری بوجود خواهد امد نه رنسانس

متشکرم
 
Oct 18, 2002
9,759
52
Sydney, Australia
#5
agha Masoud. This is a good idea. One of the reasons that christianity is still the mainstream religion is due to the fact that it at least attempts to reform and keep up with the times. Islam is a difficult one though. Many of the countries with Islam as the main state religion are third world countries with very low literacy levels. I think its not unfair to say Islam has become by default the religion of the poor and uneducated. Its my opinion that educating the populace will go a long way to achieving the objectives you mentioned in your post. Otherwise some of the changes will be extremely hard to implement.
 

The_Referee

National Team Player
Mar 26, 2005
5,534
0
Jabolqa Opposite Jabolsa
#6
We need a cultural renaissance than any other. Without it, religion will be replaced by some other BS ideology.
Chrisitianity, Judaism and all are far more BS than Islam but they do not pose the same danger to the Western democracy as Islam does to us. (Islam a modified version of those as Bahai is a modified version of Islam.)
I am not discounting what happened in Norway. But we need to be realistic. That was an act of terror and in our countries the same is done by governments and institutions by far greater frequency and in a deeper level. Because it is us who let that happen.

What we really need it is to flourish a culture of freedom, a healthy secularism (not anti religious) and respect to all, and more importantly to minority thinkers. We need to guarantee that ideologies do not limit an open society and an open discussion.

That has to go deep into our own mind also. Therefore, I am starting this by reading masoudA's post more seriously and not thinking he is so out of line and so out of touch. To me, with all due respect, it looks like it. But I am sure he might have had reasons to think that way and trying to understand that. So no bombing him with sarcasm or anything...and hence my answers above.

Again - do not get me wrong. You are all free to make sarcastic remarks. But when this becomes the norm of our way thinking, it goes far and beyond what might be too obviously ridiculous and before you know you will do the same to anything you do not agree with.
 

ME

Elite Member
Nov 2, 2002
5,904
435
#7
As far as religion as a social order, you can't fix a broken system only by introducing rhetorical changes. Of course I am not judging religion as good or bad, and I am not talking about the religion when it is only a personal belief. The west didn't go into reneissance because of the church reform (although it coincided with the protestant movement). They just adopted new orders based on sicence and then kept the church in check. They didn't try to improve it, they didn't tey to burn down the chuches...etc, they just moved on.

I always use this analogy for social religion. It is like horse in the history of mankind. Horse served human for thausands of years (rarely it kicked him in the ass too) and so did religion. But their time is over. They are simply not compatible with our way of life and our roads and highways anymore, no matter how hard we try to improve their brands (upgrade the horseshoe or feed it better hay vs reform a religion). We simply need to use other advanced means istead as in cars and trains vs social science and law...etc. Yet we should not get rid of them either. We can keep them in the horsefarms (churches), use them for personal leisure and fun and gratification, and even in remote places that using advanced means are not possible yet.

In summary, I believe in a more concrete approach to religion. Don't let it meddle in your way of life and don't meddle in it. Just contain and preserve it.
 

Niloufar

Football Legend
Oct 19, 2002
29,626
23
#8
agha Masoud. This is a good idea. One of the reasons that christianity is still the mainstream religion is due to the fact that it at least attempts to reform and keep up with the times. Islam is a difficult one though. Many of the countries with Islam as the main state religion are third world countries with very low literacy levels. I think its not unfair to say Islam has become by default the religion of the poor and uneducated. Its my opinion that educating the populace will go a long way to achieving the objectives you mentioned in your post. Otherwise some of the changes will be extremely hard to implement.
oh look who is here?!:) Good to 30 u here Pezhman jan! How is the family and your lovely children?! hope all is well over there. its good to hear from u after loooong time.



As much as think there is no reforming the Islamic Republic, I think Islam itself needs to be reformed – the sooner the better.
Also, as much I think orgamized religions (all of them) are an obstacle between humans and whatever "God" is - I must admit, these religions are here for now and we must deal with them in a civilized manor.
The way I see it – Islamic clergies have long declared Islam a taboo over and beyond any debates or reforms, making any such suggestions impossible and punishable by death (as being at war with god). Now that we have the internet, I hope we can break this taboo, at least in the cyber space – in hopes to come up with certain aspects of Islam that must be reformed – in hopes that soon Islam will find it’s own version of Martin Luther.

Hence, I especially encourage participation of members who posses extensive knowledge on Islam and Islamic Rules to participate in this thread. Please note that my goal here is not to re-write the Qoran – but change and/or reform Islamic laws that are practiced but are not actually in the book or are in the book but open to interpretation.
Masoud jan,

With all due respect, your suggestions will only cause huge bankruptcy for Islam and Clerics. Hence thats why it cant be implemented. Here is why!:

Here are a few of my suggestions:
1- Do away with the “Unwritten Law” that a Moslem may not change religion.
If that takes place, number of muslim population will dramatically decrease(either converting to other religions or no religion at all). hence their profit goes down.
2- Make 18 the official age for marriage.
Really?! you mean clerics and their followers have to wait 18 yrs to sigheh/marry a girl?! and if they dont abide, they can legally be charged for "raping"?! Thats impossible!

3- Give equal rights to men and women on all aspects of social and judicial laws.
The day a muslim woman can marry a foreign,non-muslim man by choice, gets a divorce by choice, gets a room without her father/husband's permission,and can marry 4 men, with 40 bfs, at the same time(just like men), its End of the World, if not Islam!

4- Revise Namaz to a more practical format – at least in Iran, nobody prays, and when people break the most fundamental aspect of a religion, they would have an easy time to break all other rules.
The whole point of Namaz is "repetition creates reality". When one repeats those lines 5 times everyday, from morning to night, it will always remain in their mind..If they dont repeat it 5 times, they'll forget about "Mohammad, Islam",etc.
5- Do away with Haj or change the rituals and locations.
The whole point of Haj is to show unity and population of muslims. Thats the whole point of emphasis on "Namaz jamat", Mecca,etc. so it cant be done in diff locations with diff rituals. and really when one 30, two million other ppl throwing stone at a grave, he doesnt think he is crazy doing that..if 2 million ppl do that every year, so it should be "normal"?!!
6- Do away with all sorts of Islamic Taxes – and make supporting the mosques totally voluntarily.
Ouch! Islam and clerics without "Zakat" go bankrupt. Just eyewitness and count $, Gold, valuable Carpets religious ppl donate at Jamkaran, mosques, every day. Its a billion $ business. and without it, there is no treasury board to bail out Islam/clerics!!
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#9
Is Islam a kitchen, a car, a toilet bowl, or a house that needs to be updated and upgraded.

And who the hell is going to update this big mess. Muhammad himself could not do it and made a mess in Koran as you can see he could not even group all the common ayehs together. Now, we expect a mullah to do what Muhammad could not do?

Muhamad, Jesus, Moses, budha, Lao are all we need to know. Problem is people concentrate on the words and not on them. Words can be played with and mean many things.

Better leave the mess in Koran as it is and koran will disapear by itself. Bandaging this illness will only make it worst. This illness will disapear when one understands they are part of the god. God is in them and god is out of them. God is everywhere and one just has to accept, be aware and immerse in it.
 
May 21, 2003
19,849
147
Not The Eshaalic Goozpublic !
#10
I have a suggestion for islamic renaissance.

carpet bomb najaf, karbala kazemyn for three weeks so that a house fly doesn't exist there no more. Then move all farsi speaking shit-es that desire to go on pilgrimage on a PERMANENT PILGRIMAGE there
 
May 21, 2003
19,849
147
Not The Eshaalic Goozpublic !
#11
Is Islam a kitchen, a car, a toilet bowl, or a house that needs to be updated and upgraded.

And who the hell is going to update this big mess. Muhammad himself could not do it and made a mess in Koran as you can see he could not even group all the common ayehs together. Now, we expect a mullah to do what Muhammad could not do?

Muhamad, Jesus, Moses, budha, Lao are all we need to know. Problem is people concentrate on the words and not on them. Words can be played with and mean many things.

Better leave the mess in Koran as it is and koran will disapear by itself. Bandaging this illness will only make it worst. This illness will disapear when one understands they are part of the god. God is in them and god is out of them. God is everywhere and one just has to accept, be aware and immerse in it.
I am sorry but since there is no evidence for any of the above unfortunately i cannot but believe that these characters were charlatans that used IDIOTS for their own goals.

Moses ke aslan is not mentioned in any HISTORICAL books. he is only referred to in garbage written by saints and emaams. Jesus was carpenters son that was hallucinating at the time which there were a thousand people per month claiming to be god's son in Judea.

mamad was a sarbaan (shotor cheroon) who through his uncles trade with Shaam (syria) got to know christian akhounds and learnt how to abuse people using the name of god. This genius businessman replaced the 100 stone gods in kabaa with an invisible one that no one could break and so ALLAH was born.

His right hand ali was brigand and thief.
 

masoudA

Legionnaire
Oct 16, 2008
6,199
22
#12
Thanks for the responses...
Boys and Girls -
As an older member let me assure you - your ideas and thoughts are quiet strong and forever....you may not feel or see the impacts immediately, but over time...If what you think or say has merits, you will experience the impacts.
ME,
The Christians did it - took them several centuries, but they did it. They could not totally get rid of the extreme version of Christianity - but they did reform it in a big way. We need to start somewhere.....it shall spread. I agree with your approach of pushing for secularism....in fact some of the suggestions are targeted towards an ISlam which would allow an easier path towrds secularism.

GP,
I was hoping someone like you would provide us with insights on what can actualy be changed for the better without opposition.
When renaissance took place in Europe - many were killed,.......a preacher was burnt alive in Holland (? or was it somewhere else in Northern Europe)....Islamic Renaissance will be even bloodier......but it is necessary.
As for wedding age - I know there are no specific age ....that is why we need a minimum age.

Nilou Jaan,
Nobody said it would be easy...but must be done....

Ref.
Comedy and Sarcasm from fools only reassures the wise. I know seriousness is the last refuge for the shallow....but I also know humor is the first refuge for the fool. As for renaissance in culture vs. religion, they both go hand in hand.....reforming Shiite Islam will certainly influence the culture in Iran. I think reforming Shiite Islam is easier than the Sunni version...because it is tied to too many things that are outside Qoran....maybe a few new Hadis would help!! lol
I agree with you about the social reform towrds a culture of freedom - but since the biggest obstacle in front of it would be religion (ISlam), why not try to work on religion to make it less resitant towrads that goal.

Sporthhead Jaan
I agree - education is the key towards our ultimate goal...but reforming Islam can only help to speed up the process - besides, as you can see, todays Islam is as expected anti education...in fact in our country it has succeeded to be anti-education bombarding the population with dis-information and distructive propaganda.

Guys and Gals,
Please try to make suggestions on how Islam can be or should be reformed. I assure you, your thoughts will not go to waste. What we write is forever.
 
May 9, 2004
15,168
179
#13
for GP,
I was hoping someone like you would provide us with insights on what can actualy be changed for the better without opposition.
When renaissance took place in Europe - many were killed,.......a preacher was burnt alive in Holland (? or was it somewhere else in Northern Europe)....Islamic Renaissance will be even bloodier......but it is necessary.
As for wedding age - I know there are no specific age ....that is why we need a minimum age.



.
جناب مسعود
وقتی رنسانس در اروپا بوجود امد که دها بلکه صدها سال قبل از ان کلیسا رو به اضمحلال رفته بود
و پای های یک نو گرایی و تجدید بنا شده بود
در صورتی که اسلام نه تنها در چند دهه اخیر رو به اضمحلال نرفته بلکه در بین مسلمانان قدرتی دو چندان گرفته است
اگر به جریانات همین به اصطلاح بهار عربی در این سال دقت کنید
می بینید این اسلامگرایان (اگر نگوییم افراطیون مسلمان) بوده اند که به قدرت رسیده اند
از مصر تا لیبی و بحرین و از تونس تا تظاهرات در سوریه و اردن
به نظر می رسد اسلامگرایان هستند که دارند به قدرت می رسند
در چنین شرایطی شما می گویید چگونه می توان رنسانس اسلامی بوجود اورد؟!!!آ
اگر این سئوال را هفتاد هشتاد سال پیش مطرح می کردید شاید می شد با در نظر گرفتن روند تاریخی در منظقه انرا به شکلی جواب داد
یعنی انوقت که دولت عثمانی از بین رفت و در گوشه و کنار سکولارها به قدرت رسیدند
ولی الان این سئوال شما بی جا است و ربطی به واقعیت روز ندارد


بله جانم
 
May 21, 2003
19,849
147
Not The Eshaalic Goozpublic !
#14
عجیبه چون که همه به جز تو سوال رو متوجه شدند
شاید بهتر باشه که خودت فکر کنی به جای اینکه به الله مراجهه کنی شاید اون موقع سوال برات شفاف تر بشه
بزار ببینم میتونم سوال ایشان را به زبون تو ترجمه کنم
میگوید که میشه تاپاله گاو رو بهش عطر زد و گذشت سر میز بشه میوه مهمون بخوره همون تر که عرب ها این نجاست رو سر سفره ما گذاشتند ؟
 

masoudA

Legionnaire
Oct 16, 2008
6,199
22
#15
lol KP

GP,
Look amongst the youth around you - do you realy think Islam is getting popularity?
The only way this ISlam can and has survived has been by way of force and as us Iranians know first hand - via terrorizing the population. Now - I am saying there are some in the society who do need a religion (as a means of living a civilized and humane life and hopefuly to bring some spirituality into their lives)- the question is: Can we rectify what KP calls as tapaleh, so the smell does not bother those who do not need a religion, are more civil and even more spiritual?
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
#16
In talking about the possibility of Islamic reformation, one should note that Islam is in fact a combination of Judaism and Christianity: The strict, rule-based Sharia (like Judaism) with a global mission (like Christianity). This combination presents extreme difficulties.

Christianity was reformed essentially through internal political pressure, and the lack of a Sharia-like rulebook made it fairly easy for churches to separate themselves from sociopolitical aspects of real world (at least for a couple of centuries, allowing the reformation to take place).

In case of Judaism, it was the extreme external pressure they face as an ethnic and religious minority that forced them to reform and simplify their religion, in other words, a attempt for survival. Without such necessary reformation, Judaism would have disappeared long time ago. Similar reformation for survival were actually carried out by muslim leaders under pressure in Soviet Union (read an interesting book by Hassan Habibi about it). However the communist regime was too short lived to allow such reformation to take root in muslim societies of central Asia.

In case of today's Islam, neither element is present. There is little internal pressure and there is no issue of survival. So the path to any reform in Islam would be long and painful.

That said, I again quote from Daniel Pipes, the American commentator who is the most knowledgeable about the Middle East (even if biased): "Islam is what muslims want it to be." Like any other religion, the adherents of a religion will interpret their texts in any way they like. Thus there will be no reform of Islam until there is a reform of Muslims.
 

masoudA

Legionnaire
Oct 16, 2008
6,199
22
#17
Deerouz Jaan - you are correct
I do however gaurantee you Daniel Pipes has Zero clue about how a whole nation of Iran fakes having a religion!!!
But for my sake - foget about all practical aspects of whether the political or social environments are favorable to reform ISlam - let's just assume all the powers are handed to you to do it - what would you change about the religion?
 
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May 21, 2003
19,849
147
Not The Eshaalic Goozpublic !
#18
lol KP

GP,
Look amongst the youth around you - do you realy think Islam is getting popularity?
The only way this ISlam can and has survived has been by way of force and as us Iranians know first hand - via terrorizing the population. Now - I am saying there are some in the society who do need a religion (as a means of living a civilized and humane life and hopefuly to bring some spirituality into their lives)- the question is: Can we rectify what KP calls as tapaleh, so the smell does not bother those who do not need a religion, are more civil and even more spiritual?
NO. that is what mohamad reza shah did and these morons rejected it so now its too late. Too much iranian blood has been spilled for us to go back to secularity. We need cleansing of this syphilis once and for all.

Shiism has to be eradicated over the next two decades in Iran.
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
#19
Deerouz Jaan - you are correct
I do however gaurantee you Daniel Pipes has Zero clue about how a whole nation of Iran fakes having a religion!!!
On the contrary, Daniel Pipes has been the first to state that currently Iran and Turkey are the two most important countries regarding Islamic reformation, albeit in two opposite directions. He believes Iran (people, not the IRI) will be the champion of positive changes in reforms while Turkey will have the most negative impact (he has been warning for years about the Islamist parties in Turkey).

From his Nov 2010 article:
http://www.danielpipes.org/9123/islamist-turkey-secular-iran

"Thus may today's most urgent Middle Eastern problem country (Iran) become tomorrow's leader of sanity and creativity while the West's most stalwart Muslim ally (Turkey) over five decades turn into the greatest source of hostility and reaction. Extrapolation is a mug's game, the wheel turns, and history springs surprises.
 
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beystr 2.0

Bench Warmer
Jul 9, 2006
1,983
0
#20
well..Hope is the eternal spring...but the geopolitical situation does not provide a lot of hope for near future of Islamic reformation..

In the Arab World, Egypt and how it goes from here on could give us a clue..however u gotta the whole Israel-pal. Issue next door and it is most likely to drive egypt toward Islamism...same thing with Syria..

it also seems like.West can't function without a definable enemy..and right now..lot of people are making a business out putting fuel into this whole Islamism ..

The sorry thing is..Moslems themselves suffer from passificity ..and are not violent in nature..even their backwardness is in par with their Christian or jewish side..but the leadership has made it a tool for power..

If u ask me...and hope again I'm wrong..but Islamic reformation would come after a messy and bloody war in the next 10 yrs or hopefully less..

That all said..the whole thing can change with actions of a ONE prominent Moslem...Didn't Christianity with all its problems mentioned here..Did not change path until a Certain English/British King actions or reaction in a LOVE STORY?....so hope is the eternal spring..