Messi

[Mahdi]

Ask your coach how he did it..

he played in a 3-4-1-2, had only two players in attack ahead of him, 4 less talented but hard working players in midfield and the team was organized.
His coach didn't try to play with only one central midfielder against 3 German central midfielders.

Besides, unlike Tevez and Iguelin, both Valdano and Burruchaga knew where and how to run.

Anyway, at least everyone except for Sly should have realized by now that no matter how talented Messi is, without organization in his team and teammates like Iniesta and Xavi, who would probably even make Oladi look better than he actually is, he can't do much.

 

[ME]

he played in a 3-4-1-2.

I am not sure there was 3-4-1-2 in 86, the first NT played this, as far as I recall, was England in early 1990s. Unless you watched the Argentina 86 games now and figured out it was actually this formation?

Anyway, at least everyone except for Sly should have realized by now that no matter how talented Messi is, without organization in his team and teammates like Iniesta and Xavi, who would probably even make Oladi look better than he actually is, he can't do much.

Maradona played even a more impressive football IMO when he singlehandedly led a broken (in every aspect) Argentina to the WC final passed Brazil and the host Italy. They could have won the final against Germany's signature team if the refree was not so harsh on them.

 

[Intoxicated]

Maradona played even a more impressive football IMO when he singlehandedly led a broken (in every aspect) Argentina to the WC final passed Brazil and the host Italy. They could have won the final against Germany's signature team if the refree was not so harsh on them.

IMO this was the worst defense and goalie combination argentina produced since i started watching the game (1990).
- messi, tevez, heguien did well
- mascherano, rodrigues, di maria, heinze were below average or avg at best
- the rest players were an embarrassment to argentina

Messi is a human being and at the end of the day there is so much he can do. times have changed and we'll no longer will see one player take a team to final stages of a tournament. opponents know how to shut down superstars and take them out of a game. at least messi was visible and was involved in half of the goals argentina scored. what did CRonaldo, Kaka, Rooney accomplish?

 

[ME]

IMO this was the worst defense and goalie combination argentina produced since i started watching the game (1990).
- messi, tevez, heguien did well
- mascherano, rodrigues, di maria, heinze were below average or avg at best
- the rest players were an embarrassment to argentina

Messi is a human being and at the end of the day there is so much he can do. times have changed and we'll no longer will see one player take a team to final stages of a tournament. opponents know how to shut down superstars and take them out of a game. at least messi was visible and was involved in half of the goals argentina scored. what did CRonaldo, Kaka, Rooney accomplish?

\\

CRonaldo, Kaka, Rooney are not even as good as Messi.
We can not call Argentina a disaster only because of one game in which they were dismantled by a super Germany team. Germans did the same to Australia and to England.
Argentina actually quite impressively won against 4 teams in a row in the tournament. But even when they had the upper hand, Messi was just a fine player in the team but nothing beyond.

 

[Intoxicated]

\\

CRonaldo, Kaka, Rooney are not even as good as Messi.
We can not call Argentina a disaster only because of one game in which they were dismantled by a super Germany team. Germans did the same to Australia and to England.
Argentina actually quite impressively won against 4 teams in a row in the tournament. But even when they had the upper hand, Messi was just a fine player in the team but nothing beyond.

i did not say argentina was a disaster i said thier defense was. im a hardcore argentina fan but beating the 4 teams they beat was not 'quite impressively' at all. germany was first real test which they failed miserably.

lets stay on topic.. imo i think messi didn't really have the support to show his skills....

 

[ME]

i did not say argentina was a disaster i said thier defense was. im a hardcore argentina fan but beating the 4 teams they beat was not 'quite impressively' at all. germany was first real test which they failed miserably.

lets stay on topic.. imo i think messi didn't really have the support to show his skills....

Who did better than Argentina up to the last round then if you don't find their run impressive?
Beside Holland Argentina were the only team that collected 100% points in the group stage in a group that was arguably called one of the toghest before the WC, they had the best goal difference among all 32 teams in the group stage, never fell behind in any game, destroyed Mexico in their last game, and remained one of the tourney's clear favs up to yesterday.
Which Argentina you were watching?

 

[Chinaski]

Who cares? Messi is potentially the best player in a team that had no clue what to do on the pitch as a whole. You guys sometimes forget Messi is a little guy with two feet, he doesnt have 4 and he doesnt spit fire, he doesnt have wings or anything. A physically fit, willing and skillful german team who executed the coaches plans just turned him and his team off completely. There is nothing more about the whole thing. They got outclassed, outcoached and Messi for the first time in the tournement had to face a team that not only muted him but also all his teammates and when this happens, no one has a chance to win a ball game. All those teams Argentina faced before, either focused too much on covering Messi and neglected his teammates or they werent able to cover anyone because they simply didnt have the weapons to shut down anybody. The Germans shut them all down completey.

Nice flight back home.

 

[meyti]

is it just me or is it true ?
I have noticed many top notch players play very well and show awesome skills when playing for their club sides but not for the NTs?!

I think coaching staff and training /playing friendlies has something to do with that.

Again ...when we have no chemistry in a team that team has little or no organization and is likely to fail.

Germans seem to have that organizaton. Just take a look at the Argentinian goal which was disallowed, look at the germans , they were all in 1 line setting up an offside trap as if they practiced doing just that!
I donno, may be was an accident but it paid off

 

[Kaz]

No guys, Messi is shit, just like every other player who failed to perform in this tourney...let's just ignore their entire club careers.

 

[shawshank]

An individual player makes a difference in situations where the team has arrived to the situation via tactical / physical superiority...So it is kind of ridiculous to tell Messi to ask Maradona how he did it. Of course they make differences but on average the better team wins regardless of the players.

I think the doctrine of football that a lot of Iranis subscribe to places a heavy emphasis on individual players making the difference (might be because of our love for futsal / gol-koochik) and it may be like this in other cultures as well but I can assure you that none of the 23 players + staff that Germany took to the World Cup maintain that view.

 

[ME]

An individual player makes a difference in situations where the team has arrived to the situation via tactical / physical superiority...So it is kind of ridiculous to tell Messi to ask Maradona how he did it. Of course they make differences but on average the better team wins regardless of the players.

I think the doctrine of football that a lot of Iranis subscribe to places a heavy emphasis on individual players making the difference (might be because of our love for futsal / gol-koochik) and it may be like this in other cultures as well but I can assure you that none of the 23 players + staff that Germany took to the World Cup maintain that view.

Just curious, what made you think that even a 12 year old kid has question about what you are saying?
The topic is not that Argentina failed to succeed because of Messi, it is about that Messi did less than what was projected and maybe that his full potential is not close to Diego as of yet.

 

[Bache Tehroon]

I don't know why some people are so thick yet so arrogant.

Where in this thread was it mentioned that Messi should've won the game for Argentina? Why start a pointless discussion about something not even worth discussing? Argentina lost to Germany. Finished, done, bye bye.

This thread is about Messi's performance, specially in the last 2 games where he failed to influence his teammates by being an inspirational player. There different ways of doing it. Running like a horse, showing technical superiority, talking to teammates, doing extraordinary things (sometimes even engaging in heated clashes with the opponent's players). It's about showing STAR quality. Things that Maradona, Zidane, Roger Milla, Hagi, Stoichkov and some other players have shown even in recent years.

Messi's game was fine. His attitude on the field was not. No one was going to pick up the slack for him and he should've known that. Although Tevez picked up a lot of it in the first few games, this was the game where Argentina were in a lot of trouble and Messi should've taken his share of the shit and carried it. He didn't.

I still have hopes for this genius.

 

[Chinaski]

This thread is about Messi's performance, specially in the last 2 games where he failed to influence his teammates by being an inspirational player. There different ways of doing it. Running like a horse, showing technical superiority, talking to teammates, doing extraordinary things (sometimes even engaging in heated clashes with the opponent's players). It's about showing STAR quality. Things that Maradona, Zidane, Roger Milla, Hagi, Stoichkov and some other players have shown even in recent years.

I agree some people are really thick.

what i wrote absolutey covers everything you want to know. I have talked about Messis performance aswell, i even gave a hint about why he played the way he did. What you are expecting here is somewhat unrealistic. You throw around all those names as if those players crushed every single of their opponents throughout their careers. No, i know of games inwhich all those players were completely off, all those players you mention have faced superior teams that showed them their limits several times in their careers.

Messi is no exception. He was off because he was facing a team that was superior to him and his teammates and thus he couldnt perform as he could or should. There is no guarantee for the Germans to play the same dominant and flawless football the next time they meat Messi and co. and then he might score two goals and shine. He is young and could win the cup for argentina single handedly next time around. Who knows. This is why i say who cares? He is human, a young human and he didnt perform because those who he had to face werent some barge choghondar. You ask why he didnt show up and carried himself or his team or whatever else. The answer is simple: He couldnt. He was facing a close to flawless team.

As Shawshank said, iranians really put too much into that star thing. Some iranians think if your name is Messi, or Zidane, Maradona, you simply have to do something extraordinary every single time you enter a football pitch absolutely ignoring the fact that there are 11 other guys on the other side of the pitch who could put together a great performance and beat anyone on that particular day. From Di Stefano, to Puskas, up to Maradona and Zidane they all have experienced such days on numerous occasions.

 

[ME]

From Di Stefano, to Puskas, up to Maradona and Zidane they all have experienced such days on numerous occasions.

They didn't experience such days on numerous occasions. This is WC 1/4 and you have a decent team, then you lose, you say goodbye for four years.

 

[Chinaski]

Yes this is WC 1/4 and you are out. And? What exactly are you trying to say? That he is all of a sudden a useless bum? Or isnt it more logical to believe in what i explained above?

All those players BT mentioned, have their fair share of important or not so important losses in the CV and this guy is still a young kid and has enough time to make up for it. Doesnt he?

 

[Chinaski]

They didn't experience such days on numerous occasions.

Example: Have you ever watched the 1990 WC final? Germany didnt even have to think much about Maradona, they just told Guido Buchwald to go out and turn him off and he turned him off. Period. Maradona looked like a real choker on that day and it was even more important than a 1/4 final, it was the final game and you never saw anything from Maradona. Germans didnt even need to double or triple him, one single defender took him out of the game almost completely and yet you guys are convinced Maradona was the best football player ever.

..the whole hungarian wonder team of 54, certainly the best team of those times, dominating world football for 8 years, with all their star players went down against the Germans in the final game. They went ahead 2-0 early but then they all together choked the rest of the way. No sign of their high scoring ability, no sign of their feared dominance, no sign of their ellegant passing game...and the germans won it 3-2

What did Zidane do in last WC final? close to nothing.

 

[ME]

Example: Have you ever watched the 1990 WC final? Germany didnt even have to think much about Maradona, they just told Guido Buchwald to go out and turn him off and he turned him off. Period. Maradona looked like a real choker on that day and it was even more important than a 1/4 final, it was the final game and you never saw anything from Maradona. Germans didnt even need to double or triple him, one single defender took him out of the game almost completely and yet you guys are convinced Maradona was the best football player ever.

..the whole hungarian wonder team of 54, certainly the best team of those times, dominating world football for 8 years, with all their star players went down against the Germans in the final game. They went ahead 2-0 early but then they all together choked the rest of the way. No sign of their high scoring ability, no sign of their feared dominance, no sign of their ellegant passing game...and the germans won it 3-2

What did Zidane do in last WC final? close to nothing.

Your points are kind of moving targets, lets remain focused. It has been explained here before that nobody claimed Messi is/was a useless player, he probably still is the world's best. The argument was that he was not able to show needed leadership to give Argentina a better chance, something that Maradona did in 1986 and 1990.
About Maradona, yes, for the sake of remaining focused, you might be right about the 1990 final game (although I can present my view on that too that is far from yours). But in the whole tounament, against Russia, Yougoslavia, Italy, ... everyone tried to cover him but they hardly acheived that goal. Bottomline is he took his team to the final game. Even Germans in 1986 tried to shut him down but as a result he set the second and third goals. So consider the 18 games Diego played in the WCs and 5 games that Messi did and compare their influence on the game and their attitude and not necessarily how well they kicked the ball. This is what our side is crying to say.
As far as the Hungarian team of 54, I am not sure where you watched that game that you know so much details about it? But I give you the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, I wonder how it is going to serve your argument? who covered who to shut down their team? as far as I know they were loaded with star players such as Puskas, Hidecoti, Cochis....(ignore the misspellings), what exactly happened there and who was covering them all?
And please refrain from averaging us as Iranians with blunted logics, it just doesn't sound good...

 

[Sly]

Besides, unlike Tevez and Iguelin, both Valdano and Burruchaga knew where and how to run.

I'm sorry but I thought Tevez was Argentina's best and most dangerous player in this tournament. Something Messi failed to be. and apparently Tevez didn't take the ball from their own goal line, dribbled past 11 players and created the danger all by himself. Messi was just not what he used to be for Barcelona. The reason could be many... one reason is the Argentinian players despite being more talented than most Barca players (just MO), did not have the chemistry since they hadn't played together for a long time. But IMO, the most contributing factor to this was fatigue after a long club tournament. It's not easy to be the star of your team and put your energy for a whole season and then play in a WC.

I think people (fans and media) should just stop waiting for a new Maradona and Pele as soon as a talented footballer shows up. At first it was Romario, Ronaldo and even Robinho whom people were expecting a new Pele from. Now it was Messi's turn to become a new Maradona. Everyone should just see a player as the way he is. That's all.

 

[Bache Tehroon]

I'm sorry but I thought Tevez was Argentina's best and most dangerous player in this tournament. Something Messi failed to be. and apparently Tevez didn't take the ball from their own goal line, dribbled past 11 players and created the danger all by himself. Messi was just not what he used to be for Barcelona. The reason could be many... one reason is the Argentinian players despite being more talented than most Barca players (just MO), did not have the chemistry since they hadn't played together for a long time. But IMO, the most contributing factor to this was fatigue after a long club tournament. It's not easy to be the star of your team and put your energy for a whole season and then play in a WC.

I think people (fans and media) should just stop waiting for a new Maradona and Pele as soon as a talented footballer shows up. At first it was Romario, Ronaldo and even Robinho whom people were expecting a new Pele from. Now it was Messi's turn to become a new Maradona. Everyone should just see a player as the way he is. That's all.

Well, it's not really about expecting a completely new Maradona out of Messi. Every decent team has influential, inspirational and irreplaceable members that hold the team together.

Holland: Sneijder/Robben

Germany: Ballack(surprisingly well replaced by Khedira but the experience is still lacking)

Uruguay: Forlan

Spain: Xavi

Ghana: Essien (they badly missed him)

Argentina: Messi

That was Messi's job and he knew it. He was to be the ace that gave the whole team hope. I admit he did fairly well at the start of the competition as it was slightly easier stuff in the group stage, but he was expected (don't tell me he wasn't) to raise his game as the competition progressed. That's what World Cup stars always do. They show up for their team. Remember Baggio? Remember Zidane? Why go back. Look at Forlan.

No one can claim Messi went the extra mile against Germany. I closely watched the guy in the 2nd half and he rarely ever ran. He was standing and at most walking. I'm not kidding. It was an outrageous thing for me. Expected a lot more from the world's best player. I didn't expect him to take the ball and dribble past everyone. I didn't expect Argentina to win the game. I expected Messi to be all over the damn place trying to shame his teammates into trying harder. No one did that for Argentina. No one. It was sad.

 

[Cruyff]

No one did that for Argentina. No one.

Tevez did. He tried very hard and was all over the field.