How would everyone know that its fake? This is what has been posted in a few books that were printed outside Iran and they listed it as being provided by Khomenis older brother (pasandideh??) to this certain author that I can not recall the name.
I am not presenting it as being a 100% accurate and we know how guarded pictures of these clerics and family members are. But that is something that has been used.
Khomeini's grandfather, Seyed Ahmad, left Lucknow (according to a statement of Khomeini's elder brother, Seyed Morteza Pasandideh, his point of departure was Kashmir, not Lucknow) some time in the middle of the nineteenth century on pilgrimage to the tomb of Hazrat 'Ali in Najaf. While in Najaf, Seyed Ahmad met Yousef Khan, a prominent citizen of Khomein. Accepting his invitation, he decided to settle in Khomein to assume responsibility for the religious needs of its citizens and also took Yousef Khan's daughter in marriage.
Seyed Ahmad, by the time of death, the date of which is unknown, had two children: a daughter by the name of Sahiba, and Seyed Moustafa Hindi, born in 1885, the father of Khomeini. Seyed Moustafa began his religious education in Esfahan and continued his advanced studies in Najaf and Samarra (this corresponded to a pattern of preliminary study in Iran followed by advanced study in the "Atabat", the shrine cities of Iraq; Ayatollah Khomeini was in fact the first religious leader of prominence whose formation took place entirely in Iran). After accomplishing his advanced studies he returned to Khomein, and then married with Hajar (mother of Rouhollah Khomeini).
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/rkhomeini/ayatollah_khomeini.php
I am not presenting it as being a 100% accurate and we know how guarded pictures of these clerics and family members are. But that is something that has been used.
Khomeini's grandfather, Seyed Ahmad, left Lucknow (according to a statement of Khomeini's elder brother, Seyed Morteza Pasandideh, his point of departure was Kashmir, not Lucknow) some time in the middle of the nineteenth century on pilgrimage to the tomb of Hazrat 'Ali in Najaf. While in Najaf, Seyed Ahmad met Yousef Khan, a prominent citizen of Khomein. Accepting his invitation, he decided to settle in Khomein to assume responsibility for the religious needs of its citizens and also took Yousef Khan's daughter in marriage.
Seyed Ahmad, by the time of death, the date of which is unknown, had two children: a daughter by the name of Sahiba, and Seyed Moustafa Hindi, born in 1885, the father of Khomeini. Seyed Moustafa began his religious education in Esfahan and continued his advanced studies in Najaf and Samarra (this corresponded to a pattern of preliminary study in Iran followed by advanced study in the "Atabat", the shrine cities of Iraq; Ayatollah Khomeini was in fact the first religious leader of prominence whose formation took place entirely in Iran). After accomplishing his advanced studies he returned to Khomein, and then married with Hajar (mother of Rouhollah Khomeini).
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/rkhomeini/ayatollah_khomeini.php
Ostad jan, I for one see no resemblence between the two other than both being round! The UN emblem looks to me more like it than the Sikh's. BTW what Khomeini being originally from India has anything to do with Sikhs, which is a small minority religion? Even those reports about his grandfather, say he was from Kashmir valley which has 94% muslim and has no Sikh.
The icon in the middle of the flag was designed by an engineer named Hamid Nadimi, not by Khomeini himself or someone from India! It is obviously clear that the emblem represents the fundamentalist Islamic thinking.
As for Nasser Engheta's lack of credentials, just the fact that he boasts a PhD degree from "American Global University" (a degree mill institute founded by some Iranian folks) is sufficient for me!
The icon in the middle of the flag was designed by an engineer named Hamid Nadimi, not by Khomeini himself or someone from India! It is obviously clear that the emblem represents the fundamentalist Islamic thinking.
As for Nasser Engheta's lack of credentials, just the fact that he boasts a PhD degree from "American Global University" (a degree mill institute founded by some Iranian folks) is sufficient for me!
Dear Deerouz the point about the emblem that you brought up makes sense and I was merely sharing what has been indicated in regards to it.
In regards to N. Engheta and his research on Nader Shah, the flag, Amir Kabir and the Mongols I have to disagree with you. It is true that the degree posted is from an American Univeristy and its and honorary one well. But that does not mean that his work and research that he spent years on is not sufficient and not accurate. Several several sources are used to put those books together and if you read them you will see what I am referring to. I have personally checked many of sources on the Nader shah story taken from Lockhart, Dr. Minooyee Nejad, Esterabadi (recorder of his court) and many other sources are all valid.
It is unfair just to dismiss someone writings without sufficent reasoning since it is not done in good faith. If you told me that I read the book and this part of it is wrong and he is saying this for his own reasons that is a different story. But for someone with this much research and hard work its unfair and not valid if you ask me.
In regards to N. Engheta and his research on Nader Shah, the flag, Amir Kabir and the Mongols I have to disagree with you. It is true that the degree posted is from an American Univeristy and its and honorary one well. But that does not mean that his work and research that he spent years on is not sufficient and not accurate. Several several sources are used to put those books together and if you read them you will see what I am referring to. I have personally checked many of sources on the Nader shah story taken from Lockhart, Dr. Minooyee Nejad, Esterabadi (recorder of his court) and many other sources are all valid.
It is unfair just to dismiss someone writings without sufficent reasoning since it is not done in good faith. If you told me that I read the book and this part of it is wrong and he is saying this for his own reasons that is a different story. But for someone with this much research and hard work its unfair and not valid if you ask me.
I think the key word here is the word "OLAVIATHA". I think the priorities for Iranians at the moment is the struggle to make sure that the people of Iran get their democratic rights. These things such as what should be our flag, should come later. Although important, in the end of the day, they are TASHRIFAT.
Secondly, I think, Monarchists should join the movement but but don't try to hijack it to or become SAVARE movement. After all, weren't they the one who where calling for the boycott of the election?
Funny thing is that while most people in Iran want Mousavi to be the president or to have a re-elections, these folks have become the mouth peice of Iranians and say that this is about total regime change. While it might be true, and the ultimate goal is that, who the hell are you to Jolo Jolo give factor?
Also, I dont see any reseblenmce between the flag of Sikhs and Iran's current flag. As usual something has become popualr to say among Iranians, and sadly, with a very biased opinion a scolar and comes tells such a bullshit story.
Secondly, I think, Monarchists should join the movement but but don't try to hijack it to or become SAVARE movement. After all, weren't they the one who where calling for the boycott of the election?
Funny thing is that while most people in Iran want Mousavi to be the president or to have a re-elections, these folks have become the mouth peice of Iranians and say that this is about total regime change. While it might be true, and the ultimate goal is that, who the hell are you to Jolo Jolo give factor?
Also, I dont see any reseblenmce between the flag of Sikhs and Iran's current flag. As usual something has become popualr to say among Iranians, and sadly, with a very biased opinion a scolar and comes tells such a bullshit story.
Fair enough. But do you as someone with expertise in this field, consider him to be really reliable on these topics? Being an amateur historian myself (!), I know many sch as myself are just one-topic experts. Engheta's work about Nader Shah may be great but does it extend to his other works too, in you view? the titles of his books look more like sensational amateur work than serious research.
Deerouz jaan when it comes to history and historians in terms of the ones possessing a PHD in the field they are experts on one subject. They can be very familiar with some fields and time periods close to it but history is focused on a certain time period or event. For example someone can be an expert on religious symbolism under the Tsar’s and one can focus on German foreign relations. This goes back to their dissertation and the research they have conducted through their Academic life. Later on if they are a part of academia they will conduct research and work on topics that are closely related to their area of focus. I know this is the norm for American scholars. Looking at someone like Engheta his work is more like research based and composing and contrasting different documents and sources. He has spent a very long amount of time composing and putting these writings together and its obvious if you read it and the sources he lists. His work on Nader Shah is 5 detailed volumes from birth to death and I can strongly say it has over a hundred sources (Persian, Turkish, English, Russian, and Indian) and other sources listed. Documents from ambassadors of other countries, travelers, court recorders and many other types of documents are used. For the most part I would say he is reliable in his research but him lacking that scholarly background and the style he used which is more like a dramatizing style would give the feeling that he is not 100% credible. That is the feeling you are getting from his books and I do agree with you. He writes it in a story form as where any reader can enjoy and it would be an easy read and fun instead of boring history. That is my take on him
Dear Kambujiyeh,
That is one assumption and one point being made. There are some photos and writings on this matter that I have seen. We can not be sure whether this is true or not but there is a lot of resemblance between the two no question. And also there are reports of Khomeinis origins being an Indian from his father side. There are accounts that indicate his father or uncle was actually killed by the people of Khomein on the streets.
khomeini and his father above
My friend I am telling you that there is no mistaking that these two symbols are NOT the same. There is a resemblance for sure but they are two different meaning behind each. This is exactly what this character was talking in TV and I can tell you that he is pulling this out of his ass without any knowledge about the subject. Anyone can give opinions about issues but just because they have a degree after their name does not make them an expert.
Please trust me when I tell you when it comes to the flag the rest of the reasoning behind equating the two are purely BS made by folks that have very little clue about what they are talking about.
Next, Khomeini's grandfather was supposedly from U
Lucknow which is in North Eastern region of India. The has nothing to do with Sikhs who are from Punjab on the North Western India and have a completely different religion and tradition than the folks in Utter Pradesh.
Anyway, what I am saying to you is that majority of these so called Iranian experts that are on TV are NOT experts in majority of the topics that they talk about and unfortunately since no one says anything to them they get away with talking all this crap about issues that makes me (I am sure others as well) pissed off.
The first prerequisite for doing research is not having bias. He is far from unbiased. His so many works does not amount to research but passionate mumbo jumbo to prove his opinions in a one way street. Just read his article about Haji Firouz and you know what I mean.
Ostad Jaan, we all know that if you like to read and understand a matter of history, it is better to read from third party sources with no or little bias about the matter.
Engeta'' is a pure Shaahi and you have to read everythign from him with lots of grains of salts and sands!!!
Ostad Jaan, we all know that if you like to read and understand a matter of history, it is better to read from third party sources with no or little bias about the matter.
Engeta'' is a pure Shaahi and you have to read everythign from him with lots of grains of salts and sands!!!
About origins of Indian-ness for Khomeini, some of you miss two points:
- Does it really matter??? What if his grandfather is Indian? What even if he himself is born in India? Do you really that racist or that much Pan-Iranist? You have to judge his deeds based on his deeds not on his origin. You are actually doing a dis-service to whoever opposes him by even insisting on this as being a bad thing.
- It is very interesting to see those who talk about research miss this important piece of information, understandably because of their passion and great bias:
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/rkhomeini/ayatollah_khomeini.php
(This is from the same source Ostaad Pooya used earlier!!!)
He was the child of a family with a long tradition of religious scholarship. His ancestors, descendants of Imam Mousa al-Kazim, the seventh Imam of the Ahl al-Bayt, had migrated towards the end of the eighteenth century from their original home in Neishapour (in Khorasan province of Iran) to the Lucknow region of northern India. There they settled and began devoting themselves to the religious instruction and guidance of the region's predominantly Shi'i population.
So I wonder why is it such a bad thing for someone to be of Iranian origin from a migrant family elsewhere??? Unless you are so passionate to find everything and anything to use against someone, you would not go that far. What you would do, you judge the person's present deeds.
So of you are so off as if Khomeini short of wrong doings and you are desperate to go and dig family history of him and attribute faults to something which was actually OK. BAABAA Jaan, his deeds were enough to prove him wrong. AZ TA'assobaate, I dare say, AHmAGHAANEYE NEJHAADI DAST BARDAARID.
- Does it really matter??? What if his grandfather is Indian? What even if he himself is born in India? Do you really that racist or that much Pan-Iranist? You have to judge his deeds based on his deeds not on his origin. You are actually doing a dis-service to whoever opposes him by even insisting on this as being a bad thing.
- It is very interesting to see those who talk about research miss this important piece of information, understandably because of their passion and great bias:
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/rkhomeini/ayatollah_khomeini.php
(This is from the same source Ostaad Pooya used earlier!!!)
He was the child of a family with a long tradition of religious scholarship. His ancestors, descendants of Imam Mousa al-Kazim, the seventh Imam of the Ahl al-Bayt, had migrated towards the end of the eighteenth century from their original home in Neishapour (in Khorasan province of Iran) to the Lucknow region of northern India. There they settled and began devoting themselves to the religious instruction and guidance of the region's predominantly Shi'i population.
So I wonder why is it such a bad thing for someone to be of Iranian origin from a migrant family elsewhere??? Unless you are so passionate to find everything and anything to use against someone, you would not go that far. What you would do, you judge the person's present deeds.
So of you are so off as if Khomeini short of wrong doings and you are desperate to go and dig family history of him and attribute faults to something which was actually OK. BAABAA Jaan, his deeds were enough to prove him wrong. AZ TA'assobaate, I dare say, AHmAGHAANEYE NEJHAADI DAST BARDAARID.
Well said my friend, I personally like Shiro Khorshid without Shamshir that represents Islam, but this is not the time to talk about this we have to support what Iranians are doing in streets and I don't see them carrying Shiro Khorshid at least not yet, majority of Iranians outside who carry that flag are supporters of Pahlavis and I saw how few of them showed up in few rallies in Vancouver and chanted marg bar mousavi and embarrassed everyone front of Canadians with breaking fights, I am not a Mousavi fan but majority of people who are fighting in streets have chosen him to lead this movement at least for now and I think that we should support what they are doing lets get rid of Akhoonds first and than be worry about the rest, people in Iran know what they are doing.
Dear Referee,
Obviously there are biases that are involved in work in which one can not deny. But this does not stand exactly for all works conducted. The heroics of Jalal al din kharazmi or the big character of Amir Kabir or history of Nader will not contribute to anything to be biased about. These are national heros that their stories are told from multiple historical sources and documents. There is no need to take up Amir Kabir or someone who fought the Mongols for ones own agenda. Its for national identity and nationalism. In regards to the Haji firooz piece that I have read I think a few years ago I have to say there is a lot of truth behind it but there are biases as well. What I am implying is that no one is either just good or bad, and can be partially both. Its not completly wrong or right and its can be much more right or much more wrong and less the other. We can not look at these characters as completly right or wrong as we are the ones who make the final decision on what to believe after viewing their work. So we can not just dismiss everything or accept everything.
Obviously there are biases that are involved in work in which one can not deny. But this does not stand exactly for all works conducted. The heroics of Jalal al din kharazmi or the big character of Amir Kabir or history of Nader will not contribute to anything to be biased about. These are national heros that their stories are told from multiple historical sources and documents. There is no need to take up Amir Kabir or someone who fought the Mongols for ones own agenda. Its for national identity and nationalism. In regards to the Haji firooz piece that I have read I think a few years ago I have to say there is a lot of truth behind it but there are biases as well. What I am implying is that no one is either just good or bad, and can be partially both. Its not completly wrong or right and its can be much more right or much more wrong and less the other. We can not look at these characters as completly right or wrong as we are the ones who make the final decision on what to believe after viewing their work. So we can not just dismiss everything or accept everything.
What many of you fail to understand is:
When does a national flag play a role ?
Yes it is useful in celebrations and in football matches -
but never in our history our UNITY outside of Iran has been this important - and the Lion and Sun flag plays the most important role in this Unity. The flag that connects us all even with the MKO! (As much as I dislike the MKO but they are holding the right flag).
It is obvious why those inside Iran can't raise the Shir O Khorshid flag - it's fully OK for them to raise a Green flag etc. It is also OK for us outside to raise Green Flags and wear green bands..... but on every event outside Iran, the Shir o Khorshid flag must be present - as the signal of our unity in demending an end to IRI. Thereby, Under no circumstances should we allow presense of the IRI flag in our demonstrations outside Iran.
When does a national flag play a role ?
Yes it is useful in celebrations and in football matches -
but never in our history our UNITY outside of Iran has been this important - and the Lion and Sun flag plays the most important role in this Unity. The flag that connects us all even with the MKO! (As much as I dislike the MKO but they are holding the right flag).
It is obvious why those inside Iran can't raise the Shir O Khorshid flag - it's fully OK for them to raise a Green flag etc. It is also OK for us outside to raise Green Flags and wear green bands..... but on every event outside Iran, the Shir o Khorshid flag must be present - as the signal of our unity in demending an end to IRI. Thereby, Under no circumstances should we allow presense of the IRI flag in our demonstrations outside Iran.
Although I agree with you, but It still bothers me and saddens me when I remeber the video of the protest in LA that was in the front page of CNN.
In that video , group of JIJI khanom, attack an old lady for carrying a shir va khorshid flag, then started screaming the slogan of " PArchamesho gerftim, parchamesho gereftim" Hijacking the whole demonstration with their stupidity and ......
In that video , group of JIJI khanom, attack an old lady for carrying a shir va khorshid flag, then started screaming the slogan of " PArchamesho gerftim, parchamesho gereftim" Hijacking the whole demonstration with their stupidity and ......
I had this same argument with my parents.Both parents of mine are against the islamic republic just like the majority of Iranians, our house is full of shir o khorshid flags from my office to our living room and there is even one hanging out side our house,I started to argue with my parents about the fact that the shir o khorshid represents the kings of iran(my parents are huge shah supporters as well)I was born after the '79 so i wasn't around to witness anything but through the years of political science courses and reading about the shah's regime through western books I realized he wasn't so great either although not as bad as these monkeys.anyways after the arguement with my parents over parcham I felt like a totally idiot and realized that shir o khorshid has nothing to do with the shah's and everything to do with been Iranian and for all those idiots like myself do some research and you wil also get it.
zende bad shiro khorshid...hoviate mon
zende bad shiro khorshid...hoviate mon
Do you know what this crowd is missing?
a couple of HUGE Banners to say in short and English why they are here and what their demands are. I am sure with our Iranian witts we will do great in our next demos.
Other than that -
This is the perfect crowd - and perfect combination of Shir o Khorshid & Green. There is nothing wrong for two to stand together or for one to stand for both.
No Photos of RP, Rajavi, Moussavi, none of potential and preffered leaders. Just the Shir o Khorshid flag. And definitly not the Kharchang flag.
If you see someone with a Kharchang flag in the next demonstrations - don't assume they know what they are doing - just kindly let them know.
