Riots in London

[IranZamin]

Again, as said, some of the areas where there were riots are areas of middle class families, probably with both parents. Now whatever, let's blame this one on the current culture just as before it was blamed on punk rock and before that on some other artist or romantisation of whatever. My point is that you're making it too easy for yourself. It's not the first time there are riots in a major European city and it won't probably be the last time. This whole blaming on circumstances, subcultures and whatnot is a huge simplification of issues. No one really knows why these guys are rioting and given some areas of riots, again, it doesn't seem too me that much of a social issue or of subcultures. I really don't know how any poor person can make it to Knightsbridge or Kensington to riot. The further point is that lots of these guys would have MANY reasons to riot for as the situation in England isn't the best, specially London were essentially even public transport is divided between for the rich and poor. Just last year there were riots on a smaller scale in the City between university students and police, but these guys had actually reasons to riot and were a bit more civilized. But this time, they don't even care about any reasons to riot but so far they just riot. Analyzing it, trying to explain it with influences and circumstances, seriously...that's boring.

Boring? That's your argument? Ok then.

Your point that some of the areas hit are middle class or above does not prove anything. If you're looking to rob and loot, you're gonna go to places where you think people have money and shops have stuff worth stealing. That's what these scum are doing. They're not making any political point by any stretch of the imagination. They are openly and blatantly indulging in an orgy of theft against fellow citizens.

The social factors I pointed out are absolutely valid and I haven't seen you offer any reasonable argument to the contrary. The problem is, my friend, as a self-proclaimed fan of "gangsta rap" and advocate of left-wing social views, you are once again trying to stick up for what you like rather than accept reality for what it is.

 

[#8]

Riots continue for 4th night in a row. This time major disturbances are happening in Manchester with many buildings on fire.

 

[meyti]

I hope the problems persist and spread to other countries.

I am against looting and crimes in general but if thats what it takes to make these head-criminals (ie govs) get busy and stop or slow down their atrocities elsewhere then I am all for it. (i.e killing women and children in Iraq or Africa etc,)

 

[Bache Tehroon]

LOL! Watch this.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=427_1312928409

 

[Dr Strangemoosh]

Injured malaysian kid gets helped, then robbed:

[video=youtube;6Gex_ya4-Oo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo[/video]

 

[Natural]

‎"A riot is the language of the unheard." (Martin Luther King, Jr.)

 

[IranZamin]

[FONT=&quot]"Protests like that of the Green movement are the language of the unheard. Even attacking institutions that you think have contributed to your plight can be the language of the unheard. Looting private businesses that have nothing to do with your grievances and robbing innocent bystanders and forcing them to strip naked(!) is the language of criminal scum using politics as an excuse." (IranZamin, Sr.)
[/FONT]

 

[lordofmordor]

As much as understandable and I dont disagree, there are no rules for the poor born into poor. It is not possible for us to put ourselves into their experiences from childhood and every moment of their lives, their relationships, etc.. to feel what they feel. Unfortunately, there are many innocents who get hurt in every situation. But lets put the responsibility where it lays. That is on the society that has created the rules and laws that benefits those that are powerful within it. The rest have to force themselves and change their ways to fit within it. This is a man made environment and therefore you cannot blame a man born into nature that is the universe and having to fit into this tiny little society and its rule made by small egoistic men who think of themselves way above everyone else.

Example: Is it right for the family of men born centuries ago and having concurred a piece of land and putting their name on it to own a piece of the world that does not belong to anyone? And now, whoever is born either stays poor or has to find a way to get a piece of that land.

[FONT=&quot]"Protests like that of the Green movement are the language of the unheard. Even attacking institutions that you think have contributed to your plight can be the language of the unheard. Looting private businesses that have nothing to do with your grievances and robbing innocent bystanders and forcing them to strip naked(!) is the language of criminal scum using politics as an excuse." (IranZamin, Sr.)
[/FONT]

 

[Payam]

Saw a report that said the man that was killed by the pigs was found in possession of an unfired olympic starter gun :-ohno:

 

[Mahdi]

Boring? That's your argument? Ok then.

Your point that some of the areas hit are middle class or above does not prove anything. If you're looking to rob and loot, you're gonna go to places where you think people have money and shops have stuff worth stealing. That's what these scum are doing. They're not making any political point by any stretch of the imagination. They are openly and blatantly indulging in an orgy of theft against fellow citizens.

Have you ever been to London?

Further, your argument would make sense if half of these guys weren't robbing and looting their own neighborhoods and communities where people have no money. This is nothing but mindless rioting for the sake of rioting and protesting against "the system", whatever that system is to them. To stick and limit this to a certain social class is just ridiculous and your argument is refuted by the map and the areas where looting happened.

The social factors I pointed out are absolutely valid and I haven't seen you offer any reasonable argument to the contrary. The problem is, my friend, as a self-proclaimed fan of "gangsta rap" and advocate of left-wing social views, you are once again trying to stick up for what you like rather than accept reality for what it is.

Fantastic. So by the same token, I could claim that as a fan of country music and "right wing anti social views" you are just doing whatever the fuck you are doing. hickerydickerydock. Wonderful...so you have no argument and take ad hominem attacks as a last resort.
Again, as said, the problem seems rather to be, that you have NEVER been to London or lived there for a significant time, are unaware of the city as a whole and the socio-economic situation of the city, probably don't even know anyone in London and when people tell you, which is a a usual reflex of yours, that your arguments doesn't stick to this case, you come up with the usual "your gangsta rap left wing fantasies"
The truth is that these are mindless riots against what they perceive to be "the system", riots that have happened before in major cities, riots that will continue to happen. These riots as the beautiful google map shows happen all across the city across all kinds of social classes but, as an example, not in the City(that's where all the shops are btw.). Besides, as a rule of thumb and stuff you learn from "gangsta rap", if you want to riot, you usually do this in your own area, because a) you know that place b) because of a) you can hide whenever shit gets though.
But please explain, there were barber shops looted by some kids. What were they trying to get? Shampoo? Scissors? No, really...

The fact rather seems to be that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about..

 

[Behrooz_C]

Behrouz jaan -
It takes quiet a talent to run an empire which extends from far east to far west from a little tiny island - ala Great Britain did. My hats off to them....for centuries they did just great - they are still doing better than expected.

But here is what I think is going on now....
Unlike what the Brits think - Masjeds are hardly a place of worship......They are community centers to organize Moslems......How many Masjeds are there in London? how many in England?
No doubt the initial killing of the youth a couple of days ago was an accident....but the ensuing riots are organized and no accident. Sooner or later khooneh kermaki kerm mizareh!!

BTW Behrouz jaan - from some of the footage I have seen - apparantly British government has let loose some of it's own version of hooded Lebas Shakhsis!! to deal with rioters - IR style!! can you verify that?

masoud jan, you lost me man! I don't get the part about masjeds. I don't understand what any of this has to do with mosques. The kids you see rioting are mostly teenagers, non-moslem and from various local gangs.
But the answer to your question is that there are many mosques in every city most of which have been financed by rich Pakistani or Arab individuals. Religion is free to practice and by law you can build a place of worship. To attach any other story to this and let your imagination run wild is just ridiculous.

I don't know how many years you have lived in the US but some times your mentality is that of someone who lives in Iran. I say this because everytime I go back and talk to people there I realise how stuck they are in this mindset that every incident is an organised conspiracy.

Also, as far as I know the British don't have their own organised Lebas Shakhsi. They don't need them. If they had some newspaper somewhere would pick up on it and it would be common knowledge by now. You may not be aware of this, but unlike IR, the press is quite independent and free here. I hope I don't need to convince you of this as well!!!

Finally, regarding the British empire, RIP. Times have changed my friend. This is not the 1800s, not even Daei Jan Napoleon times. This is the 21st century.

 

[Bache Tehroon]

Also, as far as I know the British don't have their own organised Lebas Shakhsi. They don't need them. If they had some newspaper somewhere would pick up on it and it would be common knowledge by now.

Behroozjan, just to clarify, England does have "Lebas Shakhsi" police. It's all over the news today that plain cloth police have been battling the rioters. Perhaps their purpose is different at the moment, but nevertheless, they do exist.

Both Canada and US employ such forces as well.

The reason this caught my attention was the last G20 summit held in Toronto revealed a different story about plain-cloth police in Canada. They indeed acted as mysteriously as I.R's Lebas-Shakhsi force and attempted to protect the summit using all sorts of dirty tactics. I agree that not everything is a conspiracy, however, The New World Order is an open declaration of war on the average citizen in the name of protecting the "peace". The peace which has cost many dearly and continues to take victims as large banks and corporations expand their debt-mongering empire.

I don't condone the looting and disorderly conducts of these young thugs, but I can easily see the day when you and I both will have to make serious decisions about siding with the ruling class or joining the underprivileged majority. The war of classes has returned in the 21st century. Modern slavery is showing its face to the world's middle class. In my opinion the choice should not be "ARBAAB" or "Ra'yat", but that's all that is being offered by The New World Order. Choosing either option is tyranny against humanity's progress in my opinion.

 

[feyenoord]

I think we should look certain issues through their historical context. The problem is that cultural disintegration and family break-ups are more visible in communities that have historically been disadvantaged. Poverty and lack of education has created a thinking pattern in individuals in these communities, transcending generations, that even eradication of poverty itself will not help to alter it. More comprehensive approach is needed.

I have never been England and London, but having lived in Holland as a refugee in an immigrant neighborhood, and also through work in prison in New Zealand I know how these people think. Contempt for tradition is not so much the issue. In fact,a lot of them do their gangstar bullshit then they go to mosques or spend time with their people from same cultures. The problem comes in when everything is being promoted on the basis of the "me", which is the result of neo-liberal global policies leading to more individualism. These individuals also need respect from society to be given to the "me" that they are. However, IMO historical disadvantage has led these people and specially the ones coming from too-traditional backgrounds, to be disadvantaged in many terms such as poor education and dysfunctional environment (families). This results in these people, when together, to find respect in other ways, often by ganging up (they like gangs because they see it as family) and to be against everything and engage in criminality.

It is really hard to change their mentalities. However, implementing right-wing economic policies will make things only worse for these people. Not that the left has been very successfull in eradicating their issues. A more pragmatic scientific approach is needed. However, with a government being in power that is binging on social and economic concepts that are deceitfull for the purpose of satisfying greed of corporations it is more possible that the issues of these people are going to be ignored.

But that is only my opinion. again, I have not been in London or England but it seems to be that this a general trend in many developed countries.

 

[Behrooz_C]

BT jan, let me elaborate. Yes of course Britain has its plain clothed policemen and agents. But masoud was talking about the equivalent of lebas shakhsi in IR which to my understanding is very very different to the plain clothed agents you see in the western countries police force. For one thing they are not mercenaries who go around beating people up and shooting them from distance. There are other differences.

That Britain has a secret police that wears plain clothes is not news, but it would be news the way masoud painted it.

 

[Mahdi]

I think we should look certain issues through their historical context. The problem is that cultural disintegration and family break-ups are more visible in communities that have historically been disadvantaged. Poverty and lack of education has created a thinking pattern in individuals in these communities, transcending generations, that even eradication of poverty itself will not help to alter it. More comprehensive approach is needed.

I have never been England and London, but having lived in Holland as a refugee in an immigrant neighborhood, and also through work in prison in New Zealand I know how these people think. Contempt for tradition is not so much the issue. In fact,a lot of them do their gangstar bullshit then they go to mosques or spend time with their people from same cultures. The problem comes in when everything is being promoted on the basis of the "me", which is the result of neo-liberal global policies leading to more individualism. These individuals also need respect from society to be given to the "me" that they are. However, IMO historical disadvantage has led these people and specially the ones coming from too-traditional backgrounds, to be disadvantaged in many terms such as poor education and dysfunctional environment (families). This results in these people, when together, to find respect in other ways, often by ganging up (they like gangs because they see it as family) and to be against everything and engage in criminality.

It is really hard to change their mentalities. However, implementing right-wing economic policies will make things only worse for these people. Not that the left has been very successfull in eradicating their issues. A more pragmatic scientific approach is needed. However, with a government being in power that is binging on social and economic concepts that are deceitfull for the purpose of satisfying greed of corporations it is more possible that the issues of these people are going to be ignored.

But that is only my opinion. again, I have not been in London or England but it seems to be that this a general trend in many developed countries.

I would partly agree partly agree with the stuff you say except for one thing:

There have ALWAYS been riots in major European cities throughout history, with neoliberal governments, with socialist governments, with etc.

In most cases the youth were on some idealistic trip, sometimes they were not but it shouldn't be a surprise that there's a riot in London, it should rather be surprising that it took so long.
Hence, I don't really buy this stuff about rap being the triggering factor for the revolts, or because the kids listen to rap and grew in a gangsta lifestlye, turned like this, or whatever else BS is analysed as issue for this.
London had already street riots last year, the riots go through all social classes and many areas, really, it's a surprise it took so long in London to happen because any time one countries economy is kind of in shit and there's a growing unemployment rate among young people, it usually leads to riots for whatever reason.

 

[Dr Strangemoosh]

I still hold that there is no western country which has a class divide as much as the UK. I dont think >50% of the wealthy/educated elited in the UK have ever spoken to a "Chav" in their lives.

I honestly think it is worse than the US and France, and that a society breakdown would happen in the UK before the other western countries

 

[mashdi]

[video=youtube;Zmo8DG1gno4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4&feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

[Behrooz_C]

Guys, let's get some facts right.

The riots in Tottenham on Saturday night happened after the planned demonstrations in memory of Mark Duggan who was shot by the police a few days earlier. After that what happened in other parts of the country were simply copycat hooligans looting shops and setting fire to what they could. It has nothing to do with the dead man, social deprivation, Islam (as masoud implied) or some intricate conspiracy.

What social deprivation I ask you, when many of the perpetrators wear designer clothes and organised the riots on their Blackberry smart phones!

As for the youth not having a future, well who is at fault? These kids went to school like most others but showed fuck all interest in it. They can't get a job? Well you should have studied and worked harder then.

I blame the sense of socialist entitlement that is to blame for all of this.

 

[meyti]

Behroozjan, just to clarify, England does have "Lebas Shakhsi" police. It's all over the news today that plain cloth police have been battling the rioters. Perhaps their purpose is different at the moment, but nevertheless, they do exist.

Both Canada and US employ such forces as well.

The reason this caught my attention was the last G20 summit held in Toronto revealed a different story about plain-cloth police in Canada. They indeed acted as mysteriously as I.R's Lebas-Shakhsi force and attempted to protect the summit using all sorts of dirty tactics. I agree that not everything is a conspiracy, however, The New World Order is an open declaration of war on the average citizen in the name of protecting the "peace". The peace which has cost many dearly and continues to take victims as large banks and corporations expand their debt-mongering empire.

I don't condone the looting and disorderly conducts of these young thugs, but I can easily see the day when you and I both will have to make serious decisions about siding with the ruling class or joining the underprivileged majority. The war of classes has returned in the 21st century. Modern slavery is showing its face to the world's middle class. In my opinion the choice should not be "ARBAAB" or "Ra'yat", but that's all that is being offered by The New World Order. Choosing either option is tyranny against humanity's progress in my opinion.

they are the ones who created lebaas shakhsi, shekar

I am sure they have already planted some of their own agents (among protesters) to loot and destroy things so to make the ppl look bad. its an old trick but works.

btw, my take on the british ppl (since I lived there among them):
(beside the snobs and lords and the pirates empire's leftovers)
there are the middle or working class who are smart/intelligent and nice etc, they care about their freedoms a lot. but then there are the low class the unemployed who live off the working class and suck up to the govt to give them free money, those are ignorant, stupid and vicious/mean. the ppl need to watch out for them. in fact the gov. doesnt need to use their own forces, all they have to do is to provoke these low class ppl via media and they act just like the old red necks in usa.
btw2, I am glad that the number of red neck idiots have immensely decreased in usa , ppl here dont give a damn about media any more...... well many of them any way

 

[masoudA]

Behrouz jaan -
1- You are correct, I have a ton of Iranian attitude with all it's political hang-ups, however - in this case I am right. I think it is you who have been too out of touch with the realities of the Moslem world and it's connections to England. However, I need to make one point clear;
What is going on in London these days started with an accident, but again how it has evolved into these riots is no accident, there is an organization behind it. Yes, the reason people get involved in social unrests has always to do with social factors such as unemployment, poverty, lack of education,..... I hear as aresult of liberal social education, there is a generation in England which lacks elements necessary to mold societies together - things such as morality, patrioticism, compassion,.....I hear they are totally missing amongst this generation of mostly immigrants.
But who organizes these folks? My guess again is the mosques......they did it in France until the French came down hard on them - while at the same time everyone has been warning the Brits as well as trhe Dutch and the French about the rapidly growing number of mosques and their functions in northern Europe.
As for Plain Cloth police officers - as I said, I saw footage that showed several hooded white guys - some even with police style radio transmitters beating up what appeared to be a young Paki kid.