UN backs no-fly zone over Libya

May 12, 2007
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Chile, Argentina, Portugal, Poland, India, S. Africa, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Philippines....

Now you show me one single violent revolution in our recent history which worse dictatorship did not emerge out of than the one people were fighting to irradicate it at the first place.
French revolution.

"History has shown that the people who grab power with guns will not leave peacefully."
Then they should leave forcefully. Or they won't leave.
In most of the countries you mention the army has not been loyal to the dictator. In Iran Sepah is. Most of the memebers of Sepah have even not seen
Irans revolution. They are still loyal to the leader.
You should not expect the dictator say Khamenei leave. He won't leave. Peacefull methods are only appliable in places where most of the system are ready for change.
Many black people were killed before the rev in S.Africa. It went through when most of the government were ready for change. In Soviet Union the army had respect for
Gorbatov and Boris Yeltzin. In Iran Sepah don't give a damn about Karubi and Mosavi. Then few men were killed if I remember correctly.
 
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Aug 27, 2005
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Band e 209
French revolution.

"History has shown that the people who grab power with guns will not leave peacefully."
Then they should leave forcefully. Or they won't leave.
In most of the countries you mention the army has not been loyal to the dictator. In Iran Sepah is. Most of the memebers of Sepah have even not seen
Irans revolution. They are still loyal to the leader.
You should not expect the dictator say Khamenei leave. He won't leave. Peacefull methods are only appliable in places where most of the system are ready for change.
Many black people were killed before the rev in S.Africa. It went through when most of the government were ready for change. In Soviet Union the army had respect for
Gorbatov and Boris Yeltzin. In Iran Sepah don't give a damn about Karubi and Mosavi. Then few men were killed if I remember correctly.
D.S,
You are not reading properly then rushing to non-relevant responses and it is not your first time. Here, I will post my comment again and you might want to pay a tad more attention to bold area.

Quote Originally Posted by Motori
Chile, Argentina, Portugal, Poland, India, S. Africa, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Philippines....

Now you show me one single violent revolution in our recent history which worse dictatorship did not emerge out of than the one people were fighting to irradicate it at the first place.
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
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United States
Chile, Argentina, Portugal, Poland, India, S. Africa, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Philippines....

Now you show me one single violent revolution in our recent history which worse dictatorship did not emerge out of than the one people were fighting to irradicate it at the first place.
Your second point echoes what I said myself but your first point needs clarification. The changes in those countries did not occur because people rose up. People rose up in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 50s and 60s too but the were put down. The entire Eastern block collapsed because of the fall/defeat of communism. As for others, generally speaking it is much easier to get the boot if you are an American ally. Ask Shah or Mubarak or even Pinochet. S. Africa was also in West's camp. When people storm the palaces of the dictator with guns, as you mentioned, one dictatorship replaces another. Sad to say but it seems like the third world needs someone to watch over them when they want to implement democracy.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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Band e 209
Your second point echoes what I said myself but your first point needs clarification. The changes in those countries did not occur because people rose up. People rose up in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 50s and 60s too but the were put down. The entire Eastern block collapsed because of the fall/defeat of communism. As for others, generally speaking it is much easier to get the boot if you are an American ally. Ask Shah or Mubarak or even Pinochet. S. Africa was also in West's camp. When people storm the palaces of the dictator with guns, as you mentioned, one dictatorship replaces another. Sad to say but it seems like the third world needs someone to watch over them when they want to implement democracy.
Flint,

I think we are straying away from the main topic of the thread; perhaps we might start an exclusive thread regarding Violent Revs. Vs non-violent revolution. Either way allow me to respond to your post.

Polish Solidarity movement started on 1980 and in 1989 they were able to conduct an independent and free election.

Weakening of Communism might have been one of the reason for the population uprising but still they had to face their individual functioning but ruthless tyrannical Gov. armed to teeth and if you look at the situation gain USSR was the last one to fall. I might even claim that that the uprising of entire USSR satellite blocks was primary reason for the downfall of the Soviets.
All in all we should not dismiss the fact that more democratic institutions have emerged at the end of 20th century nonviolent revolutions than the other way around. Probably that is b/c there is always a business end to a gun which attracts greedy, ruthless faction of the revolutionaries to step fwd and fill up the power vacuum which has been generated by the same gun.

Above is the reason I’m cynical twd this Libyan uprising. Who says if the eastern rebels (who belong to opposing tribe to Quacky) take over Tripoli they will be any better (democratic) than present regime?
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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Flint,
Above is the reason I’m cynical twd this Libyan uprising. Who says if the eastern rebels (who belong to opposing tribe to Quacky) take over Tripoli they will be any better (democratic) than present regime?
Agreed. Komitehs in pick up trucks waving guns and driving like crazies through the streets of Tehran might have been called "rebels" too and we all know how that turned out. The idiots I see on TV in Libya seem to be cut from the same cloth. Gaddafi was pretty much tamed as far as the rest of the the world was concerned. This war makes little sense.
 
May 12, 2007
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D.S,
You are not reading properly then rushing to non-relevant responses and it is not your first time. Here, I will post my comment again and you might want to pay a tad more attention to bold area.
Rasul
Ok What have I misunerstood?
in our recent history
Our=Irans Or Worlds history. It must be the world since all your examples are from other countries
Recent? How recent?

The statement "a violent revolution ends up in a dictatorship" needs a proof. Where dose it come from? Why dose it make sense?
To me it makes sense if you always fight for your (democratic) rights.
 

beystr 2.0

Bench Warmer
Jul 9, 2006
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there is not an ounce of similiarity between Iran and Lybia given in a military attack senario... I'd venture to say it would take a month or more of carpet bombing with zillion sorties To get rid off Iran air defence & radars...thats part of reason why any I-ranian should be wary of military attack to oust IRI...and would it be worth the a devastated and largley destroyed Iran to get rid of IRI...plus the fact that we don't see a such a terrific option or a leader waiting out there to make a difference in a new Iran...Iran could still be a major force in the world with a slow transition from this regime to the next..

Plus...Nato and the West are pretty much like IRI..in the sense that they r Zaeef kosh..they won't piss away ( like in Iraq & Lybia) unless they know there is no major threat to their naked butt..and Iran is far from that at the moment...plus all other reasons...who or what foriegn land has IRI attacked to deserve a Nato attack?..MG..pretty much like his dog brother saddam had his hand soaked in blood in Chad for yrs....and that alone deserves a Nato response..
 
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Behrooz_C

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2005
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A small island west of Africa
I think we have to be careful not to make too many conclusions about other countries based on what happened in Iran 32 years ago. I know it's tempting, but when people point out to the similarities, they often forget the many many differences that also exist. These are completely ignored.

It doesn't make sense to dis every rebellion just becuase ours turned out to the way it did. Think about it.
 
Feb 17, 2009
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People look at components of AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles from a U.S Air Force F-15E fighter jet after it crashed near the eastern city of Benghazi March 22, 2011. The fighter jet crashed in Libya overnight after apparent mechanical failure but its crew were sae, a spokesman for the U.S. military Africa Command said on Tuesday.






A man shows a number on a U.S Air Force F-15E fighter jet after it crashed near the eastern city of Benghazi March 22, 2011. The fighter jet crashed in Libya overnight after apparent mechanical failure but its crew were safe, a spokesman for the U.S. military Africa Command said on Tuesday.






See the M61 ..








Libyans gather around the wreckage of a US F-15 fighter jet in Ghot Sultan, South-East of Benghazi on March 22, 2011 after crashing while on a mission against Moamer Kadhafi's air defences. The US Africa Command said the aircraft had experienced equipment malfunction over northeast Libya, adding that the two crew members had ejected and were safe.
 

Niloufar

Football Legend
Oct 19, 2002
29,626
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A great article by Roger Cohen about Libya crisis:

Be Ruthless or Stay Out

Roger Cohen
LONDON — For years I watched a “no-fly zone” in Bosnia. I watched Bosnian Muslims being slaughtered as NATO patrolled the skies. The no-fly zone was created by the United Nations Security Council in October 1992. The Srebrenica massacre took place in July 1995. Enough said.

The Bosnian no-fly zone was an attempt to assuage Western consciences after the Serb killing spree against Muslims in the first six month of the war. It was not about saving lives: Lifting the grotesque arms embargo on Bosnia might have achieved that. It was about allowing politicians in Washington and Paris to feel they’d done something, however feeble, about genocide.

Having witnessed hypocrisy most foul in Bosnia — the West, in Margaret Thatcher’s words, became “accomplice to a massacre” — I refuse to will similar hypocrisy on the brave resistance fighters of Benghazi who face Muammar el-Qaddafi’s superior tanks, now moving relentlessly eastward. No-fly zones are for the birds.

The real question must be put up-front if the West’s Bosnian shame, its smokescreen of useless agitation, is not to get a Libyan re-run: Should President Barack Obama lead a coordinated, Arab League-backed Western military intervention in Libya to stop Qaddafi?

That’s a tough question. I would have found it easy right after Bosnia, when — like Leon Wieseltier of the The New Republic, but unlike him now — I was a passionate interventionist. I don’t today.

Life must be lived forward but can only be understood backward, as Kierkegaard noted. He might have added: “And if not, you’re in trouble.” Iraq and Afghanistan have provided powerful lessons in the cost of facile planning (or none), the ease of going in, the agony of getting out, and the limits of Western firepower.

But there’s another historical lesson. Rwanda paid the price for the botched U.S. intervention in Somalia. The 1994 Rwandan genocide took place as America did nothing in part because the fiasco of Somalia disinclined the United States to intervene. Can we then allow the fiasco of Iraq to prevent a Western intervention in Libya as the Qaddafi clan delivers “rivers of blood”?

It’s a prosaic exercise, but let’s set forth arguments for and against a Western military intervention:

Against:

1) The riveting moral power of the Arab Spring comes from its homegrown quality. This is about Arabs overcoming fear to become agents of their own transformation and liberation. Nothing would more quickly poison this movement at its wellspring than Western colonialism in new form (that’s how Qaddafi will portray it, and he will have an audience.)

2) U.S. intervention in Libya will reinforce the old argument that America only gets involved in the Middle East to secure its oil interests. It will end up hardening regional anti-Americanism.

3) The United States cannot afford a third war in a Muslim country. The very talk of Western intervention betrays a profound misunderstanding of the West’s declining power. When the Bosnian war broke out, major Western nations accounted for about 70 percent of the global economy. Now that figure is just over 50 percent — and falling. The “white man’s burden” is not history; it is ancient history.

4) Intervention will turn into a long military stalemate that will distract the West from what must be its core strategic objective: A decent democratic outcome in Egypt that, with more than 13 times the population of Libya, is the pivot of the Arab awakening.

5) The legality of any intervention may be dubious.

For:

1) Obama and other Western leaders cannot declare the objective of removing Qaddafi and then sit idly by as people rising to oust him get massacred. That’s as criminal as encouraging the Shiites of Iraq to resistance in 1991 and then watching them be slaughtered by Saddam.

2) Obama’s repeated pledges that he stands for universal human rights will be shredded if Qaddafi prevails. Just as the bombarded people of Sarajevo deserved American-backed firepower — which finally proved decisive in 1995 — so do the people of Benghazi.

3) Qaddafi, like Milosevic, is a weak bully. He’s fighting along a narrow strip of coastline. His support is shallow. Crater coast roads from warships in the Mediterranean, jam his communications, provide weapons and money and training to the ragtag resistance, and he will quickly crumble.

4) The Arab Spring across North Africa will be undercut at a critical juncture if Qaddafi is allowed to recover. Wounded, a cornered beast, he may then do his worst.

5) Qaddafi is a mass murderer who brought down Pan Am 103 (270 people aboard) and UTA 772 (170 aboard), crimes now reconfirmed by his justice minister. He has slaughtered thousands of his own people over decades. There could scarcely be a more powerful moral case for the elimination of a leader.

What’s clear to me is that there is no halfway house. Spurn conscience-salving gestures. The case against going in prevails unless the West, backed and joined by the Arab League, decides it will, ruthlessly, stop, defeat, remove and, if necessary, kill Qaddafi in short order. I’m skeptical, even after a vote from the United Nations authorizing "all necessary measures," that this determination can be forged. Only if it can be does intervention make sense.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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Agreed. Komitehs in pick up trucks waving guns and driving like crazies through the streets of Tehran might have been called "rebels" too and we all know how that turned out. The idiots I see on TV in Libya seem to be cut from the same cloth. Gaddafi was pretty much tamed as far as the rest of the the world was concerned. This war makes little sense.
I know what you mean Flint,
This picture brings back plenty of sad memories. May be the saddest.;)

 
Jun 18, 2005
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Leave it to the far right to tell you whether a war is justified or not. Whatever happened to those WMDs.

Their problem really is not with the war itself but who is waging it.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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Leave it to the far right to tell you whether a war is justified or not. Whatever happened to those WMDs.

Their problem really is not with the war itself but who is waging it.
I wish it was that simple, far right or far left has nothing to do with scrutinizing a war no matter who is waging it.

100damn and Qaddafi were both dangerous detriments to security of the world and must have to go, but let’s compare both wars if you wish.

In span of 10 years 100damn started 3 major wars against his neighbor 2 of them being major energy suppliers to the world. So he had to go (meaning the decision was made in international level, regardless of WMD fiasco). GWB took the matter to Congress and got the approval he needed. He issued an advance warning to 100D that he must go and this warning lasted 4 full months, mean while he ushered the attention to UNSC. His problem was he decided to attack iraq 4 days before a resolution was passed. But when he started the operation he managed to assemble a coalition of 47 different nations including some Arab states.
Qaddafi is an international terrorist period. The memories of Pan Am 103, Pan Am 73, Berlin bombing and god knows how many more have not been forgotten yet. So no sympathy here.

But I don’t believe I should remain quite when I see an uprising takes place on Feb 17 2011, a rather hasten resolution passes in UNSC on March 17 2011 and on dawn of March 19 Rafales, Tornadoes, B2s, F-15s, Tomahawks and Storm Shadows are already flying, conducted by 3 nations coalition. All these happened in 32 days.

Also I’m having difficulties buying UNSC reasoning “protecting civilians through enforcing NFZ”. I will believe it when I see they intercept rebels fighter jets and when they stop rebels from slaughtering Qaddafi clan and supporters when they get to Tripoli. So far they have not left a good track record they are already killing black day workers, looting immigrant’s belongings and kicking them out of eastern Libya. Just check the Egyptian and Chad borders.

BTW: Far right or far left, IMO Quacky is finished, he won’t survive this, I just hope with minimum possible bloodshed.
 
May 12, 2007
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This is nothing but a military intervention. Very good analysis by Hamid Dabashi:

[video=youtube;O2p_-VYJzKQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2p_-VYJzKQ[/video]
How did Hamid Dabashi get visa in US?
He sounds leftish. I wish I had a glue what his solution is. When US invades Iraq it is wrong. When they
support or arm people to overthrow the dicatator it is also wrong. When they do nothing it is also wrong.
What do we expect them do to help without being blamed to this or that?