US Sponsored Taliban back in power in Afghanistan

[Chinaski]

I disagree. The entire history of the region is based on powers that were "actively involved in radicalizing moslems, actively involved of arming radical moslems, [and] planning couts for them to take over whole countries". They were called the Abbasids, Fatimids, Almoravids, Seljukids, Ajuuraan, Adal and Warsangali, Mughals, Safavids and Ottomans!

De khob baaz daari birabt harf mizani refigh! Be maa va be in bahs che rabti daare in jaryaan aakhe pedar jaan? Aakhe bani abbas o safaviyeh be amrikaa che rabti daaran? Taaze agar ham rabti daasht baazam eshtebaah mikardi. All those really unrelated dynasties you have listed above have been moslem dynasties. They have been moslems themselves. They did not used islam to destroy moslems, they were just moslems who ruled mostly moslems. So fucking what? vaaghean che rabti daare aakhe?! Oonvaght migi mifahmi man chi migam. Khob nemifahmi dige.

Today you have a massive world power that is actively creating and supporting islamism to destroy and weaken the whole region. So here we got ourselves a non moslem world power that uses a religion against people. They even use moslems to destroy other moslems and laugh their asses off. They use the destructive potential of a religion that this same world power doesnt even believe in. So to them its nothing but pure intension of destroying.

Nonfactors?! Radicals were in power and running the region until 100 years ago. How many wars, mass migrations from ethnic cleansing, and genocides took place in the region until 100 years ago? If your definition of a radical is only someone who ties a suicide belt and blows up a dozen people and not someone who orders or carries out the genocide of 1.5 million people, then that's a whole different argument.

Yeah, absolut nonfactors. Imagine Najibollah in Afghanistan, Shah in iran, Saddam in Iraq, Assad in Syria, Mubarak in Egypt, cut the dirty US Admins hands from this region and this region would prosper. All these countries would take care of those islamists themselves like they did before the american help poped up for these animals. They have been nonfactors and they can be nonfactors again. the only thing thats made them to a major factor was the US help. Not more and not less. All those countries that i mentioned above were kept together by secular nationalists who atleast werent disintegrative elements. They put their countries integrity first. They all, although ruled by moslems, didnt allow islam to interfere in state matters. Khob shoroo hamine dige. Hamin joori mantaghe yavaash yavaash dorost mishe dige. tamaame in keshvar haa ro yeki yeki amrikaai haa dadaneshoon daste mosalmoonaa.

Sure. I don't like to oversimplify things to the point that you do.

charand nagoo baba. Harchi taa halaa gofti ye seri araajife birabt boodeh.

 

[Bi-honar]

De khob baaz daari birabt harf mizani refigh! Be maa va be in bahs che rabti daare in jaryaan aakhe pedar jaan? Aakhe bani abbas o safaviyeh be amrikaa che rabti daaran? Taaze agar ham rabti daasht baazam eshtebaah mikardi. All those really unrelated dynasties you have listed above have been moslem dynasties. They have been moslems themselves. They did not used islam to destroy moslems, they were just moslems who ruled mostly moslems. So fucking what? vaaghean che rabti daare aakhe?! Oonvaght migi mifahmi man chi migam. Khob nemifahmi dige.

Today you have a massive world power that is actively creating and supporting islamism to destroy and weaken the whole region. So here we got ourselves a non moslem world power that uses a religion against people. They even use moslems to destroy other moslems and laugh their asses off. They use the destructive potential of a religion that this same world power doesnt even believe in. So to them its nothing but pure intension of destroying.



Yeah, absolut nonfactors. Imagine Najibollah in Afghanistan, Shah in iran, Saddam in Iraq, Assad in Syria, Mubarak in Egypt, cut the dirty US Admins hands from this region and this region would prosper. All these countries would take care of those islamists themselves like they did before the american help poped up for these animals. They have been nonfactors and they can be nonfactors again. the only thing thats made them to a major factor was the US help. Not more and not less. All those countries that i mentioned above were kept together by secular nationalists who atleast werent disintegrative elements. They put their countries integrity first. They all, although ruled by moslems, didnt allow islam to interfere in state matters. Khob shoroo hamine dige. Hamin joori mantaghe yavaash yavaash dorost mishe dige. tamaame in keshvar haa ro yeki yeki amrikaai haa dadaneshoon daste mosalmoonaa.

charand nagoo baba. Harchi taa halaa gofti ye seri araajife birabt boodeh.

Chi begam daadash, just because you like to oversimplify things and don't see the relevance, it doesn't mean it's irrelevant. And to make it look irrelevant you're now modifying your argument to say that your problem is that Americans aren't Muslims! That Muslims destroying Muslims and Christians was okay, but heaven forbid if Christians destroy Muslims. In 3 posts, you've gone 180° from I hate Muslims to I hate everyone who hates Muslims! 3 Days ago, you wear swearing at Hassani for saying something similar, now you're saying exactly what Hassani would say in this situation. Vaghan chi begam.

 

[Chinaski]

Chi begam daadash, just because you like to oversimplify things and don't see the relevance, it doesn't mean it's irrelevant. And to make it look irrelevant you're now modifying your argument to say that your problem is that Americans aren't Muslims! That Muslims destroying Muslims and Christians was okay, but heaven forbid if Christians destroy Muslims. In 3 posts, you've gone 180° from I hate Muslims to I hate everyone who hates Muslims! 3 Days ago, you wear swearing at Hassani for saying something similar, now you're saying exactly what Hassani would say in this situation. Vaghan chi begam.

Chi begi? Jeddi migam, age mikhaay in araajif o jafangiaate mahz ro begi behtare aslan hichi nagi.
Vaaghean to zaddi roo daste ye seri bisavaade dige. Ino nemikhaastam behet begam vali jeddi baayad ino behet goft. Yani be jaai reside ke daari jaryaane amricaa too 40 saale akhir ro baa Bani Abbas o Safaviyeh moghaayese mikoni. In kheyyyyyyli maskhare tar az ye seri chizaaiiye ke Hassani tahvile maa mide. Jeddi migam kheyli zaayast. Yani engahd koso shere ke delam missosoze. Yani bargashit migi chon irooni o arab 1200 saal pish be mellat haaye khodeshoon zolm o setam kardan, Amrica ham pas hagh daare in kaaro bokone. Bebin vaaghean cheghadr koso sher tarif mikoni. Aslan ham haalit nist ke taa che had harfaat maskhare shode chon zolm o setame safavi o moghol o ababsi o bani omaaye ro khode man kessi boodam ke injaa azash sohbat kardam, na to. vali baa kamaale veghaahat miaai ye hamchin koso sheri minevisi. Ye raget jeddi jeddi mollast haa refigh

Na amoo joon, age 1000, 1200 saal pish arab o safavi o tork o moghol be mardom zolm kardan, goh khordan ghalat kardan (hamoontor ke man hamishe goftam o shakhsan dar in baare hataa ketaab ham eraae daadam). Vali alaan bahs sare kesaafat kaariye amrica too mantaghast, va inke daare mantaghro baa eslaam khafe mikone onam na baa eslaame modrat, balke baa eslaame radical. In bahs kheyli saade bood amoo joon va to chon kollan tanet mikhaare oomadi injaa khodeto zaayeh kardi dar soorati ke bazi oghaat behtare aadam harfi nazane age harfi vaase goftan nadaare.

Hanooz too kafe inam ke maghze to chetor injaa daare safavi o bani abbaas ro baa in jaryaane amrica ghaati mikone...loool.

vaaghean baa saade tarin mataaleb moshgel daari. Mantaghe maa mosalmoone. Haalaa badbakhti yaa khoshbakhti bastegi be dide aadam daare. Man migam motasefaane mostalmoonim vali laazem nist radical baashim. Mitoonim mesle zamaane shah baaz taghriban mesle ensaan zendegi konim. Eraagh mitoone mesle zamaane hezbe baath bedoone eslaam too ghaanoone asaasish zendegi kone, keshvareshoon mitoonest az byen nare, motelaashi nashe, 3 tikke nashe... afghaanestan mitoonest baa najibollaah kheyli behtar zendegi konne taa baa taalebaan. Sooriye mitoonest kheyli behtar o raahat tar baa assad zendegi kone taa baa ye mosht boo gandooye eslaamist, libi mitoonest baa ghazaafi kheyyyyli behtar o dorost tar zendegi kone taa alaan ke keshvar toosh harj o marje o 3 taa goroohe eslaamsit daaran ghaaratesh mikonan o be jodaai mikeshoonan. Aakhe pedar jaan, in jaryaan be safavi o bani abbas o bani ommaye che rabti daare aakhe? Hehe...

 

[Bi-honar]

I think Soroosh said it best "the context and depth from which we're looking at this is very different". You're having a VERY shallow look at just the lat 40 years and completely out of context of what happened even 60 years before that (never mind centuries before that). I'm looking at it at a much deeper level and within a historical concept. Obviously our conclusions will be very different, so no reason to be disrespectful to one another and let's just leave it at that.

 

[Chinaski]

age to fekr mikoni in aghlaaniye, migim baashe. moshgele emrooze mantagheye maa baa eslamism bani abbas o mogholaa boodan, na US admin ke 40 saale daare be soorate vaazeh o acitve risheye eslaamism ro taghviat mikone o mamaalek ro az daste secular haa migire mide daste eslaamist haa. ghaboole? Injoori bishtar doost daari?

Raasti oo kessi ham ke oomad harfe saghfe fekri o darki ro zad man boodam na soroosh. Soroush oomad harfamo taid kard. Sorough jozve oon aghaliatiye ke injaa sathe darke siaasi o ejtemaaish az amsaale to kheyli baalaa tare. Khodesho dargire haashiye nemikone, shafaaf tar fekr mikone. To maghzet kheyli sari dargire haashiye mishe va in hamishe baaes mishe ke bahs ro birabt mikoni.

Vaagheyat ine ke man chon neveshte haaye shomaa haaro mikhoonam moratab bishtar be in jaryaan vaaghef misham ke har ensaani ye ghodrate khaasi daare, yeki forooshande va dallaale behatariye(ke motmaenam to too forooshandegi o dallali az man behtari masalan), yeki ham ghodrate darke siaasi o ejtemaaish bishtar o bartar az kessaye digast va az in nazar to vaaghean dar moghaabele amsaale man harfi vaase goftan nadaari.

 

[Bi-honar]

age to fekr mikoni in aghlaaniye, migim baashe. moshgele emrooze mantagheye maa baa eslamism bani abbas o mogholaa boodan, na US admin ke 40 saale daare be soorate vaazeh o acitve risheye eslaamism ro taghviat mikone o mamaalek ro az daste secular haa migire mide daste eslaamist haa. ghaboole? Injoori bishtar doost daari?

Baba, you really struggle with simple concepts. Our problem in the region today is Islamism. Islamism is not an invention of the US, nor does it have its roots in the last 40 years, or outside the region. If you can agree with these simple statement of facts , let's move on to the next point. If you can't, then it's not me who's struggling with the obvious.

 

[Chinaski]

Baba, you really struggle with simple concepts. Our problem in the region today is Islamism. Islamism is not an invention of the US, nor does it have its roots in the last 40 years, or outside the region. If you can agree with these simple statement of facts , let's move on to the next line. If you can't, then it's not me who's struggling with the obvious.

Go back read carefully. Aslan na, hamin do se taa poste aakharamo dorost bekhoon bedoone inke faghat be fekre javaab daadan baashi. You are really talking bullshit here because i sad we can start going back 1400 years. Then we can say islam is the problem. Yes it is. I said another thing and it is: Anyone who starts being extreme about his religion and this case islam, is an islamist. Hameye inaa ro daashte baash chon midoonam mokhet dobaare kop mikone sar nakh az daset khaarej mishe. Now: We are moslems though. The region is moslem and islamism has always been there BUT: History shows us that not long ago all these struggling countries have been ruled by moderate secular guys who have been moslems but no radicals (=no islamists). What does it tell you? I think a logical mind would come to the conclusion that its pretty much possible to minimize the islamistic threat, its possible to keep them in check. I mean all these countries i mentioned just got into the hands of islamists in the last 40 years. Now we have to go and look who made these once underground elements become so powerfull and the answer is the US Admin and not bani ommaye o bani abbaas! Az 1000 saal pish biaa biroon, haashiaro vel kon.

Syria is a prime example. The same islamists from homs started the same shit under Hafez Assad and everybody saw what happened to them when the americans didnt help them. Simple. Assad was able to deal with them and Syria didnt have to become the ruin that is today. Now 3 years ago, the same islamists started the same islamist campagin and you see what the support of west, usa, saudi and turkey can do. Now they have achieved what they failed to achieve under Hafez Assad. That tells us, all these countries, starting by Afghanistan down to syria and libya, they all would very well be able to deal with their islamists who infact have always been a nonfactor because they never had the support of vast majority of people so they had to work our of their underground wholes. Today, amricans are giving these animals political, military and strategical support and you see the result. Shah never would have left the country if Carter didnt send Huyser to iran whom first sentence to shah was: I heared alaahazrat are leaving the country"! Yani boro. The same guy warned iranian army generals to let people gather up in the streets. Yani alanan daste police o artesh ro az posht bast ke inaa har ghalati deleshoon mikhaad bokonan...


As i said: If america would have stayed away from this region, the governments in the middle east would have been able to deal with islamism pretty easily. Infact all these countries were living a much better life without being bothered by islamists 40 years ago. The only difference to today is the US intervention infavour of the Islamists.

Haalaa baaz biaa begoo Bani Ommaye o Bani Abbas o tork o moghol!

 

[Bi-honar]

One step at a time bro, one step at a time. I know what you said in earlier posts, but instead of a quick yes to a combination of those points, you're already sidestepping the argument and mixing up other stuff, as you do in this sentence with if and then:

"i said [if] we can start going back 1400 years. Then we can say islam is the problem."

I was NOT talking about Islam or going back 1400 years. I'm talking about Islamism at this juncture in time. I really don't know how much simpler to make questions to get a simple yes or no from you without 3 paragraphs attached to it:

Do you agree or disagree that Islamism is the problem in our region?
Do you agree or disagree that US did not invent Islamism?
Do you agree or disagree that Islamism does not have its roots in the last 40 years?
Do you agree or disagree that Islamism doesn't have its roots outside the region?

 

[Hassan1980]

One step at a time bro, one step at a time. I know what you said in earlier posts, but instead of a quick yes to a combination of those points, you're already sidestepping the argument and mixing up other stuff, as you do in this sentence with if and then:

"i said [if] we can start going back 1400 years. Then we can say islam is the problem."

I was NOT talking about Islam or going back 1400 years. I'm talking about Islamism at this juncture in time. I really don't know how much simpler to make questions to get a simple yes or no from you without 3 paragraphs attached to it:

Do you agree or disagree that Islamism is the problem in our region?
Do you agree or disagree that US did not invent Islamism?
Do you agree or disagree that Islamism does not have its roots in the last 40 years?
Do you agree or disagree that Islamism doesn't have its roots outside the region?

Yani to vaghean motevaje nemishi ke manzoor oon chiye ?

 

[AFRIRAN]

Yani to vaghean motevaje nemishi ke manzoor oon chiye ?

mishe shoomaa tozihesh bedi ?

 

[Bi-honar]

Yani to vaghean motevaje nemishi ke manzoor oon chiye ?

Sure, I understand what he's saying, but I don't agree with how far he's taking it. People from the ME have an inferiority complex. It's the same inferiority complex that surges its ugly head in the form of terrorism or Islamism. It's the same inferiority complex that makes you hate the Jews because you think they're the cause of all our problems and it's the same inferiority complex that makes China hate the Americans or Massoud hate the British as the cause of all our problems. Someone's always looking to blame the problems of the region on someone else.

Once we start looking at ourselves as the source of the problem, once we acknowledge our weakness and start working on it, then and only then will we be able to stop people from exploiting us or that weakness. Sitting here and pointing fingers at others for doing the exact same thing we and everyone else has done in human history - exploitation of the weak - is neither going to make the weak stronger nor prevent the strong from exploiting them. It's simply going to reinforce the fact that the weak are weak and shall remain weak. It's a perpetual self fulfilling prophecy of playing the victim and becoming one.

And most people in the region other than Iranians and Syrians and some minority Islamist Pakistanis, Iraqis and Afghanis have already done that and they're moving on, while we're sitting here with one thumb up our ass and our index finger pointed across the ocean!

 

[AFRIRAN]

Sure, I understand what he's saying, but I don't agree with how far he's taking it. People from the ME have an inferiority complex. It's the same inferiority complex that surges its ugly head in the form of terrorism or Islamism. It's the same inferiority complex that makes you hate the Jews because you think they're the cause of all our problems and it's the same inferiority complex that makes China hate the Americans or Massoud hate the British as the cause of all our problems. Someone's always looking to blame the problems of the region on someone else.

Once we start looking at ourselves as the source of the problem, once we acknowledge our weakness and start working on it, then and only then will we be able to stop people from exploiting us or that weakness. Sitting here and pointing fingers at others for doing the exact same thing we and everyone else has done in human history - exploitation of the weak - is neither going to make the weak stronger nor prevent the strong from exploiting them. It's simply going to reinforce the fact that the weak are weak and shall remain weak. It's a perpetual self fulfilling prophecy of playing the victim and becoming one.

Daash Bi-Honar to be honest I must say no you don't understand what he says, you and daash chinaski talking about two different things , he is talking about broader subject ,larger than people and region that is your subject of the talk , he is talking about the foreign force messing up middle east equation and it's unnatural result .

 

[AFRIRAN]

kheili doost daarim bebinim Hassan chi gerefteh ?

 

[Bi-honar]

Daash Bi-Honar to be honest I must say no you don't understand what he says, you and daash chinaski talking about two different things , he is talking about broader subject ,larger than people and region that is your subject of the talk , he is talking about the foreign force messing up middle east equation and it's unnatural result .

Dassh Afi, I don't think you understood what I'm saying, 'cause I wasn't talking about what he was saying, rather my problem with what he's saying!

Foreign forces can't do shit if we don't let them. The US aren't messing up China or Russia or Korea, or even tiny countries without a military like Luxembourg or Switzerland are they? The US has to suck up to (khaaye maali koneh) Switzerland and Luxembourg just to keep tap on its own citizens' bank accounts for god's sake!

 

[Hassan1980]

Dassh Afi, I don't think you understood what I'm saying, 'cause I wasn't talking about what he was saying, rather my problem with what he's saying!

Foreign forces can't do shit if we don't let them. The US aren't messing up China or Russia or Korea, or even tiny countries without a military like Luxembourg or Switzerland are they? The US has to suck up to (khaaye maali koneh) Switzerland and Luxembourg just to keep tap on its own citizens' bank accounts for god's sake!

Dude, intervention is part of human nature, dont look too far, check within your own family and i am sure there were atleast 1 or 2 problems which were caused by other people. Damn dude, you are old enough to understand the point here so why are you insisting bikhodi?

 

[Bache Tehroon]

Baba Behroujan,

You're really taking the piss now.

First you call the other side of the argument 'too obvious' and then you move the discussion to Islamic Khalifas! LOL!

Chinaski is focusing on the past 40 years because there has been a shift of strategy by the world's most influential power. The strategy has left a track-record of empowering Islamic radicalism while maintaining selective relationships with certain states.

What the hell does this have to do with Abbassids or Safavids? This stuff is events that affects our immediate families not because they are muslims but because the world's powers have decided to nurture the most radical aspects of Islam and turn it into a quantifiable resource for gains not aligned with the commonwealth of ordinary people from that region.

Yeah yeah yeah, it's all obvious stuff that a 4 year old knows, but let's discuss whether the US invented Islam or not because that sure as hell is not as vivid a subject as the topic here.

 

[Bi-honar]

Dude, intervention is part of human nature, dont look too far, check within your own family and i am sure there were atleast 1 or 2 problems which were caused by other people. Damn dude, you are old enough to understand the point here so why are you insisting bikhodi?

Yes, that's exactly my point. China's making this look like it's an exclusively US problem. I'm saying it's just the inherent nature of mankind. And using your family example, if you have a problem at work, do you blame your dad for your upbringing, or acknowledge the problem and do what you need to do so solve it?

 

[Bi-honar]

Baba Behroujan,
You're really taking the piss now.
First you call the other side of the argument 'too obvious' and then you move the discussion to Islamic Khalifas! LOL!.

LOL. No, you guys said I'm missing the obvious and I said I'm not missing it, just that you're stating the obvious and so what?

Chinaski is focusing on the past 40 years because there has been a shift of strategy by the world's most influential power. The strategy has left a track-record of empowering Islamic radicalism while maintaining selective relationships with certain states.

The way you compose your sentences has a certain subtlety that China's argument doesn't. That subtlety makes a HUGE difference in the argument. Take your sentence "the strategy has left a track-record of....". I fully agree with that statement, why? Because it does not necessarily suggest malintent - it leaves the door open for the discussion for wrong policies, unintended results, fuck ups and whatever else.

What the hell does this have to do with Abbassids or Safavids? This stuff is events that affects our immediate families not because they are muslims but because the world's powers have decided to nurture the most radical aspects of Islam and turn it into a quantifiable resource for gains not aligned with the commonwealth of ordinary people from that region.

Yeah yeah yeah, it's all obvious stuff that a 4 year old knows, but let's discuss whether the US invented Islam or not because that sure as hell is not as vivid a subject as the topic here.

Now, you're regressing back to China's argument. Of course this stuff affects our immediate families because they are Muslims and of course what happened during the Safavid era has a bearing on what's going on now! You're going to blame the sectarian issues in the region on the US? This shit has been going on for centuries. The US is not the cause of it, they're simply exploiting it to their advantage the same way the Safavids were doing it 300 years ago, or the Russians were doing it in Afghanistan 150 years ago or the Ottomans were doing 100 years ago. This is NOT an issue exclusive to the US. You think what's happening now is anything like the persecution of Zoroastrians in Iran or the genocide or Armenians?! You're going to blame that shit on the US as well?!

 

[keyvan_pars]

Yani to vaghean motevaje nemishi ke manzoor oon chiye ?

to khodeto ghati nakon boro hamoon kalato bokon too chamkaran.

 

[keyvan_pars]

Sure, I understand what he's saying, but I don't agree with how far he's taking it. People from the ME have an inferiority complex. It's the same inferiority complex that surges its ugly head in the form of terrorism or Islamism. It's the same inferiority complex that makes you hate the Jews because you think they're the cause of all our problems and it's the same inferiority complex that makes China hate the Americans or Massoud hate the British as the cause of all our problems. Someone's always looking to blame the problems of the region on someone else.

Once we start looking at ourselves as the source of the problem, once we acknowledge our weakness and start working on it, then and only then will we be able to stop people from exploiting us or that weakness. Sitting here and pointing fingers at others for doing the exact same thing we and everyone else has done in human history - exploitation of the weak - is neither going to make the weak stronger nor prevent the strong from exploiting them. It's simply going to reinforce the fact that the weak are weak and shall remain weak. It's a perpetual self fulfilling prophecy of playing the victim and becoming one.

And most people in the region other than Iranians and Syrians and some minority Islamist Pakistanis, Iraqis and Afghanis have already done that and they're moving on, while we're sitting here with one thumb up our ass and our index finger pointed across the ocean!

I wouldn't go as far saying they are the cause of the situation in Iran under the boots of theology. But at the same time they are not what they portray to be, i mean neither the Americans, nor the brits, russians the Chinese or others. nobody gives a fuck about what happens in other countries.

Only people who are the cause of what is happening in Iran are IRANIANS.

Iraqis might have a case in saying well we were invaded by a foreign power our Saddam was removed and replaced by shites that caused the country to be divided, to which i would understand an iraqi (sunni) being upset about. Me i am indifferent to situations across iranian borders when the situation in iran resembles a cross between Angola and Bangladesh.

Iranians do not hold the same valid argument. They were not invaded, recently, and not puppet government was installed there. They elected these brainless apes and they keep living under these apes and give them 'khar savari'.