What is going on in Turkey?!

[byebyenow]

I'm lost bro. What does this have to do with us? Those were the reasons the Turkish protestors and critics are siting. They weren't my assumptions or personal take on the situation.

Frankly, the only half decent counter-argument I have seen so far, to what the protestor and critics are accusing Erdogan of, is that these acts are the hallmarks of any "conservative" government in the west rather than a religious or Islamist one in the ME. And I think that might be what you're saying here. Like I said, it's a decent counter-argument, but personally I find all conservative parties, whether in the west or the ME, too religious and I think that with the advent of social media a lot of conflicts are bound to happen when certain religious values infringe on the rights of other people. At the end of the day constitutions in democracies are meant to protect the rights of all people, but not at the expense of infringing on the rights of others.

IMO what is happening in Turkey is like what is happening almost everywhere in the world. Privatization of public lands and resources, allowing huge foreign investments, promoting strict laws, and more centralizing the states are the trends that is not only happening in Turkey but everywhere. Turkish people should be an example for all people around the world. I'm glad these people raised up against this actions most government are taking. Conservative governments always tend to be supported by religious people more and the conservative political figures sometimes tried to employ their religious ideology in the state. However what is happening in Turkey has many stories, we have people opposing strict Islamist rules, we have people opposing Turkey getting involve with foreign issues more than before, we have people opposing the dictatorship like policies from Erdogan, but I think the most main issue people are unhappy about are the way Erdogan has centralized the state more and influenced the military and judicial branch deeply and how he has encouraged more foreign investments and allowing more privatization of public resources. These are threatening the Turkish people and that's why they are protesting and of course his recent regulations on alcohol has added more fuel in the fire.

 

[ashtar]

I don't understand how banning alcohol between 10 pm and 6 AM while allowing it for the rest of the day is considered an Islamic act?!

In the US alcohol commercials on TV are not allowed to show anyone actually drinking the alcohol and you can't carry and drink from an open bottle of liquor on the street (hence why the drunks on the street always have their alcohol bottle in a paper bag). Then hell, I guess US is also governed by an Islamist government and we didn't know.

It's like accusing a father of being a strict catholic for asking her daughter not to prostitute on Sundays.

 

[Bache Tehroon]

I don't understand how banning alcohol between 10 pm and 6 AM while allowing it for the rest of the day is considered an Islamic act?!

At a first glance I couldn't find the correlation either, but then we have Turkish women protesting the strong possibility of Hejab and banning of alcohol altogether. I don't know if they're just being paranoid or there's more to it. Either way, they have taken the risk of getting confronted by the police. No sane mind does things like that unless there really was a reason to do so.

 

[feyenoord]

I agree with you here, what is happening in Turkey is like what is happening almost everywhere in the world. Privatization of public lands and resources, allowing huge foreign investments, promoting strict laws, and more centralizing the states are the trends that is not only happening in Turkey but everywhere. Turkish people should be an example for all people around the world. I'm glad these people raised up against this actions most government are taking. Conservative governments always tend to be supported by religious people more and the conservative political figures sometimes tried to employ their religious ideology in the state. However what is happening in Turkey has many stories, we have people opposing strict Islamist rules, we have people opposing Turkey getting involve with foreign issues more than before, we have people opposing the dictatorship like policies from Erdogan, but I think the most main issue people are unhappy about are the way Erdogan has centralized the states more and influenced the military and judicial branch deeply and how he has encouraged more foreign investments and allowing more privatization of public resources. These are threatening the Turkish people and that's why they are protesting and of course his recent regulations on alcohol has added to the fuel.

I have a hard time to understand the relation between your post and Bi-honar's one.

This is another issue. In the past few days I have looked at opinions of Iranians regarding this issue. While many are thinking that Turkey is rising up against Islamization, ohers (usually from communist ideological affiliation) are thinking that this is some sort of revolution against Capitalism while the protests were sparked by a group of environmentalists. The truth is as sad as it is most people in Turkey seem to be happy with Erdogan's economic policies. Otherwise, he would not have won a third straight term, increasing the number of voters in his favor each time. Most people seem to be complacent, not only in Turkey, but also in most developed countries (as sad as it is).

 

[ashtar]

At a first glance I couldn't find the correlation either, but then we have Turkish women protesting the strong possibility of Hejab and banning of alcohol altogether. I don't know if they're just being paranoid or there's more to it. Either way, they have taken the risk of getting confronted by the police. No sane mind does things like that unless there really was a reason to do so.

I doubt there would be any imposition of hejab in Turkey given the heavy dependance of their economy on tourism. And their ambitions of joining the European Union.

As for banning alcohol all together I don't know what their government's exact motivation is but I can tell you that any state in the world that could get away with banning alcohol would try to do it for the same reason they ban illicit drugs (although in Islamic countries they may have added incentive of the religion). US tried it too and it failed. Alcohol is nothing but an illicit drug, no different and not any more benign than marijuana, cocaine, meth, or cigarets. The only reason alcohol is not illegal is because it's a very lucrative and organized industry that has become a norm and part of the culture of many countries just as smoking cigarets in public places had been for decades.

 

[Babr]

i lived in turkey for almost two years in mid 90 and went there 2 years a go ! in level of economy it was day and night , 90% of people with who I talked ( and non of them were islamist) were totally satisfy with their economy situation since erdogan is in charge !

 

[deerouz]

At a first glance I couldn't find the correlation either, but then we have Turkish women protesting the strong possibility of Hejab and banning of alcohol altogether. I don't know if they're just being paranoid or there's more to it. Either way, they have taken the risk of getting confronted by the police. No sane mind does things like that unless there really was a reason to do so.

Even though they have not had full control yet, Turkish Islamists still have a clear history of violence against seculars. Remember when they burned the hotel where Aziz Nesin was staying in?
This is not just about Hijab and Alcohol. The political Islam that Erdogan is representing is not the Salafi type, but a more modern/refined version of Khomeinist movement without the Velayat-e faghih. Erdogan is only different from the Iranian Islamists in the fact that he did not have a revolutionary atmosphere to his benefit, so he has to move slowly and step-by-step to reshape Turkey from a secular republic into an Islamic republic. The turks see this and fear their country will turn into another Iran.

 

[DireStraits]

I don't understand how banning alcohol between 10 pm and 6 AM while allowing it for the rest of the day is considered an Islamic act?!

It has nothing to do with Islam. Think you will know. In many countries Islam is not about Alkohol and hejab. It is a different thing.

 

[deerouz]

i lived in turkey for almost two years in mid 90 and went there 2 years a go ! in level of economy it was day and night , 90% of people with who I talked ( and non of them were islamist) were totally satisfy with their economy situation since erdogan is in charge !

Iranian economy was also stabilized and improved significantly after the 1953 coup. Doesn't make the coup justifiable. So was Chilean economy after Pinochet took over. This is just the result of stability.

 

[IranZamin]

Enjoyed reading this thread so far. Just a minor correction though: the Armenian genocide happened under the Ottomans. But the secular republic's treatment of Kurds and their pathetic denials of the genocide does not make them much better in that department of course.

 

[lordofmordor]

Because after Iranians made a small mistake and the Khominie and other thugs you worship took over the power and bichareh kardan the people of Iran, taking every social freedom and political away and using torture, rape, hanging, whipping in the name of the disease called Islam, any civilized person in the world will be worried about rats such as yourself running around preaching anything about Islam and Islamic laws.

I don't understand how banning alcohol between 10 pm and 6 AM while allowing it for the rest of the day is considered an Islamic act?!

In the US alcohol commercials on TV are not allowed to show anyone actually drinking the alcohol and you can't carry and drink from an open bottle of liquor on the street (hence why the drunks on the street always have their alcohol bottle in a paper bag). Then hell, I guess US is also governed by an Islamist government and we didn't know.

It's like accusing a father of being a strict catholic for asking her daughter not to prostitute on Sundays.

 

[byebyenow]

I have a hard time to understand the relation between your post and Bi-honar's one.

This is another issue. In the past few days I have looked at opinions of Iranians regarding this issue. While many are thinking that Turkey is rising up against Islamization, ohers (usually from communist ideological affiliation) are thinking that this is some sort of revolution against Capitalism while the protests were sparked by a group of environmentalists. The truth is as sad as it is most people in Turkey seem to be happy with Erdogan's economic policies. Otherwise, he would not have won a third straight term, increasing the number of voters in his favor each time. Most people seem to be complacent, not only in Turkey, but also in most developed countries (as sad as it is).

Well I did agree with the second part of his post about conservative governments in general, however I did notice that and edited my post so it wouldn't be confusing. I have to say environmentalists will never be able to make their protest expand to the whole country and make it last for several days, this is much bigger than just environmental issues. I have to say it really is both cases in the same time, and it is not communist ideology this is more of Nationalism in the sense opposing huge foreign investments that domestic investors can not compete and they are destroying many public areas to promote this foreign projects on these lands. This is not good for Turkish people in future, they also see the Erdogan is influencing more and more in other organs of the state and tending to like to try more strict Islamist laws are the combination of issues that caused these mass protests across the country, I have hard time to think only environmentalists can maintain huge protests around the country, maybe they were the cause of the spark of the protest in the first day but this is really more than environmental issues it is about large amount of people in the country are opposing his recent policies.

 

[Bi-honar]

I have a hard time to understand the relation between your post and Bi-honar's one.

This is another issue. In the past few days I have looked at opinions of Iranians regarding this issue. While many are thinking that Turkey is rising up against Islamization, ohers (usually from communist ideological affiliation) are thinking that this is some sort of revolution against Capitalism while the protests were sparked by a group of environmentalists. The truth is as sad as it is most people in Turkey seem to be happy with Erdogan's economic policies. Otherwise, he would not have won a third straight term, increasing the number of voters in his favor each time. Most people seem to be complacent, not only in Turkey, but also in most developed countries (as sad as it is).

Fey jaan, from what I'm understanding, a lot of this escalated after he won his 3rd term, so how people voted 2 years ago may not necessarily be a stamp of approval on his policies now and certainly on his reaction to the protests. Aside from that, he had 50% of popular support back then and what many people fail to appreciate about democracy is that getting half the votes does not mean that you only have to cater to 50% of the population and say hell to the other 50% of trample their rights. You're still the PM for 100% of the people - that's what democracy means.

The good news is that the deputy PM apologized today for the police response to the protests. Ultimately, the timing of these protests, coinciding with the Iranian elections may end up being a blessing in disguise or some sort for us Iranians. You never know.

 

[masoudA]

What is going on in Turkey?!!!
It is simple - that nation has recognized the rise of Islamism in the ME and does not want to see all the past efforts made by Ata-Turk and co. in secularizing Turkey go to waste.

 

[Bi-honar]

This is a good read on Turkey's "Neda" - the Lady in Red:

Woman in red becomes leitmotif for Istanbul's female protesters

 

[Playboy]

turkey is a banana republic.it's fortune is tied up entirely to outside investments.if they pull out the economy will collapse!seems like the people in turkey have had enough of being slaves to other nato countries and now Qatar and Saudi.turning the population into cogs for a foreign investment machine was a bad plan to begin with.giving them increasing credit to fool them into a sense of wealth was worse.turkey is not far away from being the next greece or cyprus economically.turning to neo-ottoman nonsense in foreign policy confirmed the delusional state of the governing elite.something had to give.the park was the excuse,the underlying cause is far more serious than a few trees.

i quote myself again because i don't want to make anyone look bad but i am reading a lot of ill informed,to put it mildy,comments about turkey and it's people on this thread. first of all tayyip being an 'islamist" has little to do with these anti-regime protest in turkey.islam by in large is a central part of the culture in turkey,much more so than in iran.in iran you have an islamic republic form of government but the culture is much less islamic than in turkey.this goes back to the different histories of iran and turkey and the fact that for a very long time turkey was ruled by islamic sultans/khalifs.this never really existed in iran so the cultural identity of iranians is much less islamic that those of turks. the simplest evidence of this is the fact that in turkey the 2 biggest holidays are purely islamic in nature and are observed by the entire population.they are:the 'ramazn bayrami', a full 3 day holiday,and 'kurban bayrami' a full 4 day holiday.there are no exclusively 'turkish' holidays or celebrations.contrast that with iran which has it's biggest holiday in nouroz which is an entirely persian and non-islamic holiday and the islamic holidays are just one day holidays not an extended multi-day events.in short,the average turk by in large is more religious and islamic than your average persian/iranian. now the main reason for the anti-regime in turkey is that tayyip has sold out turkey and it's proud people to nato+isreal+qatar+saudi in recent years.his neo-ottoman foreign policies are very unpopular with the turks.as mentioned above the economy is entirely dependent on outside investments and will collapse as soon as they decide to pull out as they did in greece and cyprus.also tayyip's recent deal with the pkk,which turks of all stripe consider as terrorists and anti-turk,is extremely unpopular.the park issue was just the spark that lit the fire.the underlying cause is far more serious than a few trees. the mickey mouse coverage of the protest in western media is another shame.case in point the story of the 'lady in red'.the turks like iranians dress up even when they go shopping to the market so it's really irrelevant if the lady is dressed nice and at a protest march.the main point is that she is there and is standing up foe that she believes in which is something that is not very 'western' friendly. further reading::http://finance.yahoo.com/news/turkey-chaos-undercut-kurdish-israeli-110038414.html

 

[byebyenow]

Enjoyed reading this thread so far. Just a minor correction though: the Armenian genocide happened under the Ottomans. But the secular republic's treatment of Kurds and their pathetic denials of the genocide does not make them much better in that department of course.

True, the genocide really took place between 1914 to 1927 under Ottomans. It wasn't only against Armenian but also Greeks as well. But I was talking about the beginning of the modern Turkish government which these acts did took place in much less degree than under Ottomans, specially in provinces such as Van and Ardahan which have a lot of Armenian and Assyrian population like our own Orumiyeh . I have a friend who is Assyrian from Turkey and he said of course everything is fine in modern times but from what he knows from his grandparents the creation of Republic didn't really benefited the Christians and it only stopped the mass murders and discrimination and assault continued for a while. Truman Doctrine really forced Turkey to start treating their minorities specially Armenian and Greeks better under pressure of United states and other NATO members. However the assault and discrimination against Kurds continued and was ignored by NATO hugely not maybe until recent times after Iraq war and mostly the pressure is from EU.

 

[byebyenow]

I do agree Turks are much more religious than us, in Germany most of Turkish women still wear Hejab but most Iranian women outside of their border don't wear Hejab.
I also agree that usually the most important issues of people protesting is due to economic policies because it directly effect people's lives financially and usually financial problems are the biggest fuel for mass protests that are able to put the most impact in policy making such as strikes.
However I also do agree people could be unhappy about religious strict policies and took an advantage to express their opinions. Turkey population has grown a lot like Iran, and young generation is huge in Turkey. We don't know how exactly the new generation really think about this strict laws but I don't believe they are happy about it. A lot of Turks I know they always had the clash with their parents for practicing Islam. But I agree Turkish people in general are much more religious than us.

 

[Bi-honar]

I do agree Turks are much more religious than us, in Germany most of Turkish women still wear Hejab but most Iranian women outside of their border don't wear Hejab.

I don't think you can use that fact to draw a conclusion that Turks are less religious than us. For the most parts, Iranians outside the country are university educated and financially better off and they have immigrated to these countries, whereas the Turks in Germany are mostly refugees without higher education.

 

[byebyenow]

I don't think you can use that fact to draw a conclusion that Turks are more religious than us. For the most parts, Iranians outside the country are university educated and financially better off and they have immigrated to these countries, whereas the Turks in Germany are mostly refugees without higher education.

I think this is what you meant, however you are right maybe that's not the factor but from my understanding and my own personal experience I think they are more religious than us. However who is more religious has nothing to do with this, young generation don't like religious strict laws in most countries.
This is a very good report about current issues in Turkey:
[video=youtube;TJp6yCodAZE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TJp6yCodAZE[/video]