I really think it depends what part and what class of people we are talking about, maybe I haven't experience all view points of different classes of both Iran and Turkey so my experience is not a factor but it seems like most Turks I came across have been more religious than most Iranian I came across. It really is unknown until some vast research find the answer backed up by stats, however this has not been the issue if they are more religious than us or not but the fact that almost all new generation around the world are much less religious than before.
I think it is important to see the picture as the whole and understand all the policies that they are protesting, and I came to five main issues they are opposing:
1. Islamist like laws and more strict regulation of social activities.
2. New projects that are building new commercial buildings in the cost of public areas and historic buildings; more importantly these commercial businesses are mostly foreign investments which is heavily unpopular.
3. More influence of Prime Minister in to Military and Judicial branches.
4. Jailing many journalists.
5. Police brutality.
I think it is important to see these protest in all of these perspective and not only focus on one part. All of these has came together to fuel these protest not only based on one of these issue but all. It was the chain of unpopular policies that came one after another to build up anger in people and the park case has sparked it into an explosion which took all over the country.
I think it is important to see the picture as the whole and understand all the policies that they are protesting, and I came to five main issues they are opposing:
1. Islamist like laws and more strict regulation of social activities.
2. New projects that are building new commercial buildings in the cost of public areas and historic buildings; more importantly these commercial businesses are mostly foreign investments which is heavily unpopular.
3. More influence of Prime Minister in to Military and Judicial branches.
4. Jailing many journalists.
5. Police brutality.
I think it is important to see these protest in all of these perspective and not only focus on one part. All of these has came together to fuel these protest not only based on one of these issue but all. It was the chain of unpopular policies that came one after another to build up anger in people and the park case has sparked it into an explosion which took all over the country.
Last edited:
LOOOLLLLLL!!!! Now they're blaming Iran for this 
Same tactic I.R used against the 1388 protesters.
Turkish police arrest suspected Iranian agent in Ankara protests
Turkish police have arrested, among others, an Iranian national named Shayan Shamloo in connection with violent demonstrations in the Turkish capital that followed what was initially a peaceful environmental protest at Gezi Park in İstanbul.
According to a source in the government who wanted to remain anonymous because of the pending investigation into violent events held in a couple of locations in Ankara, the Iranian national was suspected to have played a provocateur role.
The same source also told Today's Zaman that authorities suspect Mr. Shamloo has connections with the Iranian intelligence. Police have reportedly arrested some 15 foreign nationals across the country in connection with events and most of them have turned out to be Iranian nationals.
The pro-government Star daily reported on Tuesday that another Iranian national named Ramin Sarabi (AKA Rıza) was arrested in Erzurum on charges of leading a plot to attack a delegation of the wise man group, which has been tasked with canvassing the province of Erzurum province to feel the pulse of the people regarding the resolution process with the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK).
According to the investigation by the public prosecutor's office in Erzurum, Sarabi is believed to have links to the Iranian Revolutionary Guards.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan hinted on foreign meddling into protests on Monday, saying that Turkish intelligence officials are working to determine whether there is any foreign link to the ongoing protests.
"Our intelligence work is ongoing [to establish foreign links to the protests]. It is not possible to reveal their names. But we will have meetings with their heads," he told reporters.
Interpretation of Erdoğan's remarks indicate that he will likely raise the spy issues with Iran, a country that has deep disagreements with Turkey in Syria, Iraq and other regional issues.
On Sunday, Erdoğan criticized Iran and Hezbollah for participating in the fighting in Syria with forces loyal to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, saying that the open support to the Syrian regime is working against Iran and Hezbollah in the Middle East and Islamic world.
Deputy Prime Minister Bülent Arınç said on Tuesday the ensuing violent protests have cost the country over TL 70 million. He said the police has identified 11 illegal groups that are involved in the violent protests.
The Taksim incidents started last Thursday where a group of environmentalists had gathered in Gezi Park to protest government plans to build a replica of the Topçu Barracks in the park as part of the Taksim rejuvenation project. Hundreds joined the group after the police used pepper spray and tear gas to disperse them.
Last year, Turkish intelligence uncovered an Iranian spy-ring in Turkey and nine people -- some Turkish citizens -- were arrested on charges of gathering strategic intelligence for Iran, as well as exchanging intelligence and know-how and coordinating activities with the PKK. The trial is still continuing in Erzurum court.
Same tactic I.R used against the 1388 protesters. Turkish police arrest suspected Iranian agent in Ankara protests
Turkish police have arrested, among others, an Iranian national named Shayan Shamloo in connection with violent demonstrations in the Turkish capital that followed what was initially a peaceful environmental protest at Gezi Park in İstanbul.
According to a source in the government who wanted to remain anonymous because of the pending investigation into violent events held in a couple of locations in Ankara, the Iranian national was suspected to have played a provocateur role.
The same source also told Today's Zaman that authorities suspect Mr. Shamloo has connections with the Iranian intelligence. Police have reportedly arrested some 15 foreign nationals across the country in connection with events and most of them have turned out to be Iranian nationals.
The pro-government Star daily reported on Tuesday that another Iranian national named Ramin Sarabi (AKA Rıza) was arrested in Erzurum on charges of leading a plot to attack a delegation of the wise man group, which has been tasked with canvassing the province of Erzurum province to feel the pulse of the people regarding the resolution process with the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK).
According to the investigation by the public prosecutor's office in Erzurum, Sarabi is believed to have links to the Iranian Revolutionary Guards.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan hinted on foreign meddling into protests on Monday, saying that Turkish intelligence officials are working to determine whether there is any foreign link to the ongoing protests.
"Our intelligence work is ongoing [to establish foreign links to the protests]. It is not possible to reveal their names. But we will have meetings with their heads," he told reporters.
Interpretation of Erdoğan's remarks indicate that he will likely raise the spy issues with Iran, a country that has deep disagreements with Turkey in Syria, Iraq and other regional issues.
On Sunday, Erdoğan criticized Iran and Hezbollah for participating in the fighting in Syria with forces loyal to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, saying that the open support to the Syrian regime is working against Iran and Hezbollah in the Middle East and Islamic world.
Deputy Prime Minister Bülent Arınç said on Tuesday the ensuing violent protests have cost the country over TL 70 million. He said the police has identified 11 illegal groups that are involved in the violent protests.
The Taksim incidents started last Thursday where a group of environmentalists had gathered in Gezi Park to protest government plans to build a replica of the Topçu Barracks in the park as part of the Taksim rejuvenation project. Hundreds joined the group after the police used pepper spray and tear gas to disperse them.
Last year, Turkish intelligence uncovered an Iranian spy-ring in Turkey and nine people -- some Turkish citizens -- were arrested on charges of gathering strategic intelligence for Iran, as well as exchanging intelligence and know-how and coordinating activities with the PKK. The trial is still continuing in Erzurum court.
tayyip's regime is mad at iran because iran has made a fool out of them in syria which plays a large part of why there is growing opposition to his regime even amongst turkish elite and nationalists.also iran is very quick to throw sand in tayyip's face with their media.and nobody can miss the irony in the most popular chant in turkey today "tayyip istifa".watch this on how iran takes advantage of tayyip's misery:http://youtu.be/OmBtvPmPVVM
The issue of Turkey will eventually comes back to this question: Should Islamist-oriented parties and groups be allowed to participate in the democratic process?
My answer is no. At least not at this time. Not until the Islamism is beaten down to near annihilation at least once, so that the Islamists start to understand the value of freedom and rights and equal participation. (like what happened to Judaism and Christianity at some point).
From its early beginning, Islam has enjoyed the benefit of driving its own show mostly with minor pressures. It was never on the verge of annihilation, its practitioners were not hunted down and persecuted (since its early days), it ruled regions with little opposition.
Perhaps the only way to make Islamists understand the value of freedom and rights, is to deny it to them. Let them perish for a generation or two under the restrictions and chains that they imposed on others. Consider it a training bootcamp, not revenge. So that they recognize that freedom and equal rights, and not their religious icons and words, are the most precious things in the world.
My answer is no. At least not at this time. Not until the Islamism is beaten down to near annihilation at least once, so that the Islamists start to understand the value of freedom and rights and equal participation. (like what happened to Judaism and Christianity at some point).
From its early beginning, Islam has enjoyed the benefit of driving its own show mostly with minor pressures. It was never on the verge of annihilation, its practitioners were not hunted down and persecuted (since its early days), it ruled regions with little opposition.
Perhaps the only way to make Islamists understand the value of freedom and rights, is to deny it to them. Let them perish for a generation or two under the restrictions and chains that they imposed on others. Consider it a training bootcamp, not revenge. So that they recognize that freedom and equal rights, and not their religious icons and words, are the most precious things in the world.
Neither Ataturk or Reza shah banned Islamic practices as a whole or limited the ability of Muslims to preach and influence. Reza Shah himself used to attend religious ceremonies! If you want to know, what I had in mind was the kind of persecution Bahais experienced under IRI. Muslims have never experienced such denial of rights. Perhaps it is time we start to learn how it feels.
To be fair to both of those men, they did take some steps in limiting the influence of the Akhoonds and abandoning some the most stupid Islamic rules of the time.
As far treating muslims like they treated Bahai's under IR, that would be a bloody process and the one that will never happen.
No one will have the stomach to do that. Bahais were prisoned, tortured, killed , raped, their properties confiscated and their most basic rights removed as citizens under IR.
As far treating muslims like they treated Bahai's under IR, that would be a bloody process and the one that will never happen.
No one will have the stomach to do that. Bahais were prisoned, tortured, killed , raped, their properties confiscated and their most basic rights removed as citizens under IR.
I don't think it would be right to do a tit-for-tat kind of persecution on Muslims. The easiest way to deal with religion is to outlaw religion in government functions and entities (military, schools, universities, ministries and courts). Basically, there should be a law that outlaws involvement of religion in decisions made by government-paid employees. Communism tried to do that, but then communism became a religious ideology on its own which was stupid. The American constitution is lacking when it comes to secularism. It leaves many holes open for religious nuts to take advantage. It also doesn't outlaw any religious business activity.
There should be a mandate for elected officials to adhere to no religious demands no matter how popular. Not a single penny should be spent by the government on religious functions. Religious activities should be taxed and limited to specific zones just like any other business. A high court should establish religion as a form of business using readily available evidence in every corner of every country on Earth. That way, religion (specially Islam) will lose its 'untouchable' status.
Reza Shah and Ata Turk failed to impose taxes on Akhundism. You want to limit or kill a business, tax it dry.
There should be a mandate for elected officials to adhere to no religious demands no matter how popular. Not a single penny should be spent by the government on religious functions. Religious activities should be taxed and limited to specific zones just like any other business. A high court should establish religion as a form of business using readily available evidence in every corner of every country on Earth. That way, religion (specially Islam) will lose its 'untouchable' status.
Reza Shah and Ata Turk failed to impose taxes on Akhundism. You want to limit or kill a business, tax it dry.
True; maybe it is desperation getting to me lately. However, don't you agree that overall we Muslims have very little appreciation for freedom and diversity of opinion. Even our moderates more focus on 'respect' and 'tolerance' than 'freedom' and 'rights'. Lately I have been thinking perhaps that's because we need a crash course in what persecution and suffering mean. As I said as a training camp , not as tit-for-tat or revenge.
But if this is disturbing or unacceptable, then the only solution would be to ban Islamism completely from political domain. That means no Islamic-oriented party, ban on political activity in religious organizations and places etc. I'm not sure if this is more practical than my proposal.
But if this is disturbing or unacceptable, then the only solution would be to ban Islamism completely from political domain. That means no Islamic-oriented party, ban on political activity in religious organizations and places etc. I'm not sure if this is more practical than my proposal.
I personally don't think they need to be banned Deerouz jaan, but they should not be able to touch a secular constitution once it has been enacted. And please let me clarify that the whole drawing up of the constitution in Iran and Egypt was seriously flawed - the constitution is NOT meant to be a document put to a referendum - it is intended to protect the rights of all the citizens, the minorities being the most important ones and in that sense, a popular vote on a referendum will not achieve what a constitution is intended to achieve.
Once a good secular constitution has been put in place, an Islamist party (if elected) can certainly try to enact new laws within the framework of that constitution. There is nothing wrong with that and that's like any conservative party in the West trying to enact conservative minded statutes. The most important part of the equation is that there be an independent judiciary where any of the new laws can be challenged if they override the constitution, the same way the process would work in the west. I actually don't think the process is working as well as it should in the West either, but at least it's on the right track.
The only other self-correcting mechanism that I would place in the system (currently missing on many levels in the west) is a small committee of 12 non-partisan judges that could actually impeach the PM or president instead of the parliament, based on complaints on violations of the constitution. With those three things in place, the system is pretty fool proof. In Turkey's case, this committee would have been able to simply impeach Erdogan even before the protests broke out on the constitutionality of his restrictions on the media and certainly after the protests broke out on the constitutionality of his actions against freedom of assembly. This type of committee of judges would be very useful in cases of corruption as well, so we wouldn't have to deal with the conservative government in Canada for example, sticking it to us for another two years without any recourse (and we didn't have to deal with the Liberals either about a decade ago).
Once a good secular constitution has been put in place, an Islamist party (if elected) can certainly try to enact new laws within the framework of that constitution. There is nothing wrong with that and that's like any conservative party in the West trying to enact conservative minded statutes. The most important part of the equation is that there be an independent judiciary where any of the new laws can be challenged if they override the constitution, the same way the process would work in the west. I actually don't think the process is working as well as it should in the West either, but at least it's on the right track.
The only other self-correcting mechanism that I would place in the system (currently missing on many levels in the west) is a small committee of 12 non-partisan judges that could actually impeach the PM or president instead of the parliament, based on complaints on violations of the constitution. With those three things in place, the system is pretty fool proof. In Turkey's case, this committee would have been able to simply impeach Erdogan even before the protests broke out on the constitutionality of his restrictions on the media and certainly after the protests broke out on the constitutionality of his actions against freedom of assembly. This type of committee of judges would be very useful in cases of corruption as well, so we wouldn't have to deal with the conservative government in Canada for example, sticking it to us for another two years without any recourse (and we didn't have to deal with the Liberals either about a decade ago).
I personally don't think they need to be banned Deerouz jaan, but they should not be able to touch a secular constitution once it has been enacted. And please let me clarify that the whole drawing up of the constitution in Iran and Egypt was seriously flawed - the constitution is NOT meant to be a document put to a referendum - it is intended to protect the rights of all the citizens, the minorities being the most important ones and in that sense, a popular vote on a referendum will not achieve what a constitution is intended to achieve.
Once a good secular constitution has been put in place, an Islamist party (if elected) can certainly try to enact new laws within the framework of that constitution. There is nothing wrong with that and that's like any conservative party in the West trying to enact conservative minded statutes. The most important part of the equation is that there be an independent judiciary where any of the new laws can be challenged if they override the constitution, the same way the process would work in the west. I actually don't think the process is working as well as it should in the West either, but at least it's on the right track.
The only other self-correcting mechanism that I would place in the system (currently missing on many levels in the west) is a small committee of 12 non-partisan judges that could actually impeach the PM or president instead of the parliament, based on complaints on violations of the constitution. With those three things in place, the system is pretty fool proof. In Turkey's case, this committee would have been able to simply impeach Erdogan even before the protests broke out on the constitutionality of his restrictions on the media and certainly after the protests broke out on the constitutionality of his actions against freedom of assembly. This type of committee of judges would be very useful in cases of corruption as well, so we wouldn't have to deal with the conservative government in Canada for example, sticking it to us for another two years without any recourse (and we didn't have to deal with the Liberals either about a decade ago).
Once a good secular constitution has been put in place, an Islamist party (if elected) can certainly try to enact new laws within the framework of that constitution. There is nothing wrong with that and that's like any conservative party in the West trying to enact conservative minded statutes. The most important part of the equation is that there be an independent judiciary where any of the new laws can be challenged if they override the constitution, the same way the process would work in the west. I actually don't think the process is working as well as it should in the West either, but at least it's on the right track.
The only other self-correcting mechanism that I would place in the system (currently missing on many levels in the west) is a small committee of 12 non-partisan judges that could actually impeach the PM or president instead of the parliament, based on complaints on violations of the constitution. With those three things in place, the system is pretty fool proof. In Turkey's case, this committee would have been able to simply impeach Erdogan even before the protests broke out on the constitutionality of his restrictions on the media and certainly after the protests broke out on the constitutionality of his actions against freedom of assembly. This type of committee of judges would be very useful in cases of corruption as well, so we wouldn't have to deal with the conservative government in Canada for example, sticking it to us for another two years without any recourse (and we didn't have to deal with the Liberals either about a decade ago).
Not so much in Islamic countries, where the believers by and large have rarely experienced religious persecution, still think that anyone who does not believe like them is najes and condemned, and have no appreciation of the value of freedom. Even moderates preach "respect and tolerance", which is quite different from freedom and diversity. Perhaps Turkey was the only bastion of secularism because of Ataturk's oppression in early days, and it is falling apart now as the power of military is eroding.
In such situation,I am not sure a piece of paper called constitution has any meaning. Once you have an Islamic government in power, they can use the power of majority under the disguise of democracy to do as they wish,appoint like-minded judges, interpret the constitution the way they like etc.
All I am saying is that it would take at least a few generations before an Islamic party can operate within a democratic framework without corrupting it, and even that would not be possible before they have experienced the taste of being persecuted and oppressed first hand. I am not sure if education by itself is sufficient to do it.