Exactly!
This is the voice of people from within Iran.
I can hardly believe some people, sitting here in the West, so far away from Iran, can even talk so lightly about an attack on Iran.
An overwhelming majority of Iranians inside Iran and many of us here in the West do not even consider the idea helpful in any way for freedom of Iranian people.
This might be an option on the table good for nuclear issue or for safety of Israel. But is that our priority or someone else's?
I know some would say so what next? I do not know what next. But I do know this is a really really bad option with tragic consequences for Iranian people.
I do not care if GP is also saying the same thing or IRI rhetorics also condemn such attacks. What I do care is Iranians and an attack on Iran will result in tragedy.
This is the voice of people from within Iran.
I can hardly believe some people, sitting here in the West, so far away from Iran, can even talk so lightly about an attack on Iran.
An overwhelming majority of Iranians inside Iran and many of us here in the West do not even consider the idea helpful in any way for freedom of Iranian people.
This might be an option on the table good for nuclear issue or for safety of Israel. But is that our priority or someone else's?
I know some would say so what next? I do not know what next. But I do know this is a really really bad option with tragic consequences for Iranian people.
I do not care if GP is also saying the same thing or IRI rhetorics also condemn such attacks. What I do care is Iranians and an attack on Iran will result in tragedy.
تنبل نرو با سایه
سایه خودش می ایه
حالا شده مصداق برخی از افراد اپوزسیون که بجز کانال تلویزیونی توی امریکا باز کردن و فحش و توهین چیزی ندارند
اینها اگر صدای ترقه را بشنوند با سرعت برق می روند توی زیر زمین قایم می شوند
ولی چون در ایران زندگی نمی کنند
و فکر میکنند در امان هستند ارزوی جنگ بر علیه ایران را میکنند
اینها حتی اگر تظاهرات هم در ایران بشود و بتوانند بروند ایران و در یک تظاهرات شرکت کنند انقدر بز دل و ترسو هستند که این کار را نخواهند کرد
منتظر می مانند رژیم را بقیه مردم ایران با خون جوانان خود سرنگون کنند و تا انها بیایند و بر سر قبر شهدا برقصند و جشن پیروزی بگیرند
ولی الان تظاهراتی نیست
اینها چشم داشت به سربازان امریکایی دارند که بروند و کشته بدهند و معلول بدهند
و دها هزار از ایرانیان را هم بکشند تا اینا بروند جشن پیرزوی بگیرند
این نوع افراد نه تنها خائن هستند و اهمیتی به کشته شدن جوانان ایرانی و امریکایی که در جنگ بخاطر مقاصد انها و امریکا تلف خواهند شد نمی دهند
بلکه افراد بزدل و ترسویی هستند که بویی از شهامت و مردانگی نبرده اند
اینها حثاله های ایرانیان هستند
سایه خودش می ایه
حالا شده مصداق برخی از افراد اپوزسیون که بجز کانال تلویزیونی توی امریکا باز کردن و فحش و توهین چیزی ندارند
اینها اگر صدای ترقه را بشنوند با سرعت برق می روند توی زیر زمین قایم می شوند
ولی چون در ایران زندگی نمی کنند
و فکر میکنند در امان هستند ارزوی جنگ بر علیه ایران را میکنند
اینها حتی اگر تظاهرات هم در ایران بشود و بتوانند بروند ایران و در یک تظاهرات شرکت کنند انقدر بز دل و ترسو هستند که این کار را نخواهند کرد
منتظر می مانند رژیم را بقیه مردم ایران با خون جوانان خود سرنگون کنند و تا انها بیایند و بر سر قبر شهدا برقصند و جشن پیروزی بگیرند
ولی الان تظاهراتی نیست
اینها چشم داشت به سربازان امریکایی دارند که بروند و کشته بدهند و معلول بدهند
و دها هزار از ایرانیان را هم بکشند تا اینا بروند جشن پیرزوی بگیرند
این نوع افراد نه تنها خائن هستند و اهمیتی به کشته شدن جوانان ایرانی و امریکایی که در جنگ بخاطر مقاصد انها و امریکا تلف خواهند شد نمی دهند
بلکه افراد بزدل و ترسویی هستند که بویی از شهامت و مردانگی نبرده اند
اینها حثاله های ایرانیان هستند
great, then you know the "normal" consequences of a country at war..you've prob seen and heard many families getting dislocated, lost its members, got mentally-physically handicapped, lost their lives, living in poverty bc of war..
so we both know this side of the story too!
akh GOLDEN words again Referee jan..exactly!
so we both know this side of the story too!
akh GOLDEN words again Referee jan..exactly!
great, then you know the "normal" consequences of a country at war..you've prob seen and heard many families getting dislocated, lost its members, got mentally-physically handicapped, lost their lives, living in poverty bc of war..
so we both know this side of the story too!
so we both know this side of the story too!
That being said, I think you missed a MAJOR part of my post which started with saying, IF MAJORITY of Iranian want to take action against the regime the way Libyans did, then I support International involvement in helping them ( just like Libya).
The Only difference is that when I say MAJORITY, I do count Iranian aboard as well.
Surely, if it becomes like Lybia, who is not in favor of Western powers' help. But the context here is, unless I am mistaken, is about Western attack the way they want to attack and with the excuses like nuclear stuff etc. in a similar fashion they attacked Iraq.
Also I do not see much difference of opinions between majority of Iranian living in the West and those inside Iran. On the contrary to what is portrayed, most of Iranians think likewise, especially when it comes about an attack on Iran. Nevertheless, I do not understand why we should consider the majority of ALL Iranians to decide what is at stake for an attack which is going to impact Iranians inside far graver than those outside. I, for one, even if they give me a vote, I will give it back to those living inside.
Furthermore, when we talk about majority we are not talking about an election and 51% majority such that a few millions of Iranians outside can make a difference. If majority want Western military intervention, it has to be an overwhelming majority and that has to be overwhelming majority of those living inside Iran.
Also I do not see much difference of opinions between majority of Iranian living in the West and those inside Iran. On the contrary to what is portrayed, most of Iranians think likewise, especially when it comes about an attack on Iran. Nevertheless, I do not understand why we should consider the majority of ALL Iranians to decide what is at stake for an attack which is going to impact Iranians inside far graver than those outside. I, for one, even if they give me a vote, I will give it back to those living inside.
Furthermore, when we talk about majority we are not talking about an election and 51% majority such that a few millions of Iranians outside can make a difference. If majority want Western military intervention, it has to be an overwhelming majority and that has to be overwhelming majority of those living inside Iran.
I am glad to see you agree with this.
I think there are 2 cases here.
1. An attack with purpose of change of Iranian government.
I DON'T think any Iranian wants to see this when we do not have an opposition which is able to come forward after such an attacks and when people are just not ready and ... This has been discussed here many many times and I have a hard time believing that any Iranian is Pro such an attack ( I don't understand why there is a need to revisit this topic every few month).
2. The nuclear issue which I think goes beyond what Iranian wants. This is an issue that effects the whole region and mismanagement of such a technology can have catastrophic effects on the whole region.
Of course, Myself, as an Iranian do not like to see all the efforts that has been put into this go to waste and like to see my country being able to use Nuclear Power to produce electricity and ...
But other nations , may not want to take a chance on having such a technology in hands of people like AN and Sepah and ... Do they have the right to ensure their future safety from these radical elements?
I read an article on Gooya few days ago ( could not find the link ) about how irrelevant is the ability of enriching uranium to actually producing electricity from it. It was saying even if you have the ability to produce enriched uranium, you can be years away from having technology to produce electricity from it. It was also using example of countries like South Korea which enjoy electricity that comes from Nuclear power for over 30 years now and have excelled in that part of the technology without being able to enriched uranium.
This is where I disagree with you and there are many reasons this is not a good idea.
Quick and Simple example is Iranians who were FORCED to leave Iran and LOST everything they had in the process !!!
Are we telling them there votes does not count ?? How is that fair ?
They got Kicked out of the Country and now they can not even have a say about their mother land !!
Believe me, There is a large percentage of Iranians aboard who were forced to leave and lost all their properties, their loved ones, families and ... in the process.
Iranian is an Iranian despite his/her geographical location.
We should all have a say in what is going to happen to our country.
That is very noble of you and I respect that but many people like to have their votes and have a say in what may happen to their mothers, fathers and families and ... who still live in Iran, or the future of their kids and themselves and their desires to go back without the fear of prosecution to see their loved ones and .... List goes on and on ...
I don't know about that. What is the magical number ? 75% or is it 80% or 90% ? If it is 90% then why not 91% !!! who is going to set this threshold ? How do we know we reached this threshold ? There will not be a free election or anything.
Reality is we will never know about this number and at the end, it will be the desire and the voice of the leaders of the MOST popular opposition group that the world will see and hear regarding this matter.That will be basically the vote of majority. Now, it can be 51% or 61% or an overwhelming majoirty.
Now, I leave you with another question to make it more interesting:
Lets, say, our Kurdish Hamvatans or our Sunni Baluch Hamvatans who have been suffering for years under the current system, way before green supporters experienced prosecutions in Iran, decide to take arms and start an uprising against this regime.
Do you support their movement?
Now, lets take it a step further, lets say those people are now losing their battle and are under heavy assault from Sepah and ...
so MAJORITY of the Iranians in that region, want an International involvement and help ( like we kinda see in Libya or how it all started in Syria), then:
Do you support International Militarily help for these guys?
I think there are 2 cases here.
1. An attack with purpose of change of Iranian government.
I DON'T think any Iranian wants to see this when we do not have an opposition which is able to come forward after such an attacks and when people are just not ready and ... This has been discussed here many many times and I have a hard time believing that any Iranian is Pro such an attack ( I don't understand why there is a need to revisit this topic every few month).
2. The nuclear issue which I think goes beyond what Iranian wants. This is an issue that effects the whole region and mismanagement of such a technology can have catastrophic effects on the whole region.
Of course, Myself, as an Iranian do not like to see all the efforts that has been put into this go to waste and like to see my country being able to use Nuclear Power to produce electricity and ...
But other nations , may not want to take a chance on having such a technology in hands of people like AN and Sepah and ... Do they have the right to ensure their future safety from these radical elements?
I read an article on Gooya few days ago ( could not find the link ) about how irrelevant is the ability of enriching uranium to actually producing electricity from it. It was saying even if you have the ability to produce enriched uranium, you can be years away from having technology to produce electricity from it. It was also using example of countries like South Korea which enjoy electricity that comes from Nuclear power for over 30 years now and have excelled in that part of the technology without being able to enriched uranium.
This is where I disagree with you and there are many reasons this is not a good idea.
Quick and Simple example is Iranians who were FORCED to leave Iran and LOST everything they had in the process !!!
Are we telling them there votes does not count ?? How is that fair ?
They got Kicked out of the Country and now they can not even have a say about their mother land !!
Believe me, There is a large percentage of Iranians aboard who were forced to leave and lost all their properties, their loved ones, families and ... in the process.
Iranian is an Iranian despite his/her geographical location.
We should all have a say in what is going to happen to our country.
That is very noble of you and I respect that but many people like to have their votes and have a say in what may happen to their mothers, fathers and families and ... who still live in Iran, or the future of their kids and themselves and their desires to go back without the fear of prosecution to see their loved ones and .... List goes on and on ...
I don't know about that. What is the magical number ? 75% or is it 80% or 90% ? If it is 90% then why not 91% !!! who is going to set this threshold ? How do we know we reached this threshold ? There will not be a free election or anything.
Reality is we will never know about this number and at the end, it will be the desire and the voice of the leaders of the MOST popular opposition group that the world will see and hear regarding this matter.That will be basically the vote of majority. Now, it can be 51% or 61% or an overwhelming majoirty.
Now, I leave you with another question to make it more interesting:
Lets, say, our Kurdish Hamvatans or our Sunni Baluch Hamvatans who have been suffering for years under the current system, way before green supporters experienced prosecutions in Iran, decide to take arms and start an uprising against this regime.
Do you support their movement?
Now, lets take it a step further, lets say those people are now losing their battle and are under heavy assault from Sepah and ...
so MAJORITY of the Iranians in that region, want an International involvement and help ( like we kinda see in Libya or how it all started in Syria), then:
Do you support International Militarily help for these guys?
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On nuclear issue also, I am with you Shahin Jaan.
I am also against Iranian government being so stupid to pursue a dangerous path and putting us in an utter isolation.
I also understand the concerns of international community, so to speak, about ambitions of Iranian government.
I even go one step further and I say that ambition is also a dangerous thing for Iranian people also.
However, my main point, and I see you are also on the same page on this, was the Western attack on nuclear issue without any regards to democracy movement inside Iran. I am sure you agree with me that nuclear issue is a non-issue if we can help freedom of Iranian people and freedom of our people by far is most important concern for us.
I am not talking about all issues related to Iran and Iranians. This is an issue that is going to impact those living inside Iran the gravest. So I think it is fair to let them say if that is OK or not. Nevertheless, forced or not, overwhelming majority of Iranians outside the country also oppose war on Iran.
To be honest with you, because of all those reasons you mentioned, overwhelming majority of those Iranians outside Iran, especially those who are forced and lost everything, go against war on Iran. They have been through hardship and they never want the same for their beloved HAMVATANs at all. They know it very well that none of those who are trapped under the tyrannic regime wanted their beloved HAMVATANs to be forced out of the country or go through the hardship.
You can say that for anything.
But remember even when in election you have 49% against the elected president, almost 100% have agreed to participate in election and live with the result of the election, even if it is against their wishes. So if all people agree to vote on something and agree to carry out the result, then there is no problem with 51%.
However, we are talking about a war and grave consequences of it. If people are not for the war, they might go to the lengths against it because it is going to impact them so gravely. In such cases, I think it is fairest to give more weight to the people are are going to be impacted the most.
If you are asking my opinion, I think armed struggle like that is no beneficial for them or for the whole country in anyway. Unless we can free our country from a tryanicall regime and go through a very through cultural evolution and reach a state that we do respect rights of individuals, which leads to respecting minorities and forms a healthy true federalism (not in a sense of Soviet Union but in a sense we have in Switzerland and Canada).
Unless we reach such a state of respecting freedom of speech, especially for individuals and minorities (by minority I do not mean only religious and ethnic but also minority thinkers), no matter who we fight or who we defeat, we will go in circles. Suppose if Kurdistan gets its autonomy. With the same mindset we have now, the minorities inside them will suffer the same.
So overall, I doubt a separatist armed struggle will bring any benefit to the ethnics nor to Iran as a whole.
However, having said all the above, armed struggle or not, I am all for the rights of ethnic minorities but I do believe that can be achieved if reach a proper secular government with a healthy freedom of speech for all.
If they are slaughtered or in risk of being slaughtered like in Libya, I would not even wait for their votes and will be in the streets asking Western powers to do something. The same way I supported Western attack on Libya. In case of Afghanistan, I even supported Western attack despite knowing that majority of Afghans might not have wanted that. It is really case by case basis, the risks involved for human lives in that area and practicality of helping them etc.
In fact, in the case of an attack on Iran for nuclear issue, I see the opposite. The risk of lives being lost with having a war is far great. There is no slaughter to be prevented. I agree that IRI is tyrannical and every extra day of this regime has grave consequences also. However, at this juncture of time, I do not think a war is going to save us that. So I think I would side with the valuation of Iranians inside about whether or not such a war is good for Iran.
I am also against Iranian government being so stupid to pursue a dangerous path and putting us in an utter isolation.
I also understand the concerns of international community, so to speak, about ambitions of Iranian government.
I even go one step further and I say that ambition is also a dangerous thing for Iranian people also.
However, my main point, and I see you are also on the same page on this, was the Western attack on nuclear issue without any regards to democracy movement inside Iran. I am sure you agree with me that nuclear issue is a non-issue if we can help freedom of Iranian people and freedom of our people by far is most important concern for us.
I am not talking about all issues related to Iran and Iranians. This is an issue that is going to impact those living inside Iran the gravest. So I think it is fair to let them say if that is OK or not. Nevertheless, forced or not, overwhelming majority of Iranians outside the country also oppose war on Iran.
To be honest with you, because of all those reasons you mentioned, overwhelming majority of those Iranians outside Iran, especially those who are forced and lost everything, go against war on Iran. They have been through hardship and they never want the same for their beloved HAMVATANs at all. They know it very well that none of those who are trapped under the tyrannic regime wanted their beloved HAMVATANs to be forced out of the country or go through the hardship.
You can say that for anything.
But remember even when in election you have 49% against the elected president, almost 100% have agreed to participate in election and live with the result of the election, even if it is against their wishes. So if all people agree to vote on something and agree to carry out the result, then there is no problem with 51%.
However, we are talking about a war and grave consequences of it. If people are not for the war, they might go to the lengths against it because it is going to impact them so gravely. In such cases, I think it is fairest to give more weight to the people are are going to be impacted the most.
If you are asking my opinion, I think armed struggle like that is no beneficial for them or for the whole country in anyway. Unless we can free our country from a tryanicall regime and go through a very through cultural evolution and reach a state that we do respect rights of individuals, which leads to respecting minorities and forms a healthy true federalism (not in a sense of Soviet Union but in a sense we have in Switzerland and Canada).
Unless we reach such a state of respecting freedom of speech, especially for individuals and minorities (by minority I do not mean only religious and ethnic but also minority thinkers), no matter who we fight or who we defeat, we will go in circles. Suppose if Kurdistan gets its autonomy. With the same mindset we have now, the minorities inside them will suffer the same.
So overall, I doubt a separatist armed struggle will bring any benefit to the ethnics nor to Iran as a whole.
However, having said all the above, armed struggle or not, I am all for the rights of ethnic minorities but I do believe that can be achieved if reach a proper secular government with a healthy freedom of speech for all.
If they are slaughtered or in risk of being slaughtered like in Libya, I would not even wait for their votes and will be in the streets asking Western powers to do something. The same way I supported Western attack on Libya. In case of Afghanistan, I even supported Western attack despite knowing that majority of Afghans might not have wanted that. It is really case by case basis, the risks involved for human lives in that area and practicality of helping them etc.
In fact, in the case of an attack on Iran for nuclear issue, I see the opposite. The risk of lives being lost with having a war is far great. There is no slaughter to be prevented. I agree that IRI is tyrannical and every extra day of this regime has grave consequences also. However, at this juncture of time, I do not think a war is going to save us that. So I think I would side with the valuation of Iranians inside about whether or not such a war is good for Iran.
کفتاران و لاشخوارانی که وجد در حقارت ٬ دریوزگی و فخر در خدمت بانوآوری در حرمسراهای اعراب حجاز دارند مجاز بر ادّعای ایرانی بودن نیستند. در مقایسه با مزدوران وعناصر میهن فروشی مثل شما وامثالهم صفحات تاریخ ایران احترام بیشتری به شعبان بی مخ قائل خواهند بود. هیچ شخصی بدون قیمت نیست٬ ولی شما ها وجود بی وجود تون را خیلی ارزانتر ازیک خورجین مملوّ از کود حیوانی وانسا نی فروختید۰ واضح است که کلمهٔ شرم برای عناصری مثل شما نا آشناست
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It might seems that way but
1) A good portion of the money spend in Iraq went missing. The money budgeted for the re-construction went missing. Good guess is in the offshore banks of the smarter thieves in the 1%.
2) It is still too early to tell. Iraq was perhaps a small part of a much bigger plan that is ongoing and might take sometime to complete.
3) Kurd's sort of running as a separate state in Iraq will bring benefits to the US and ensure ongoing conflict that will require dependency.
1) A good portion of the money spend in Iraq went missing. The money budgeted for the re-construction went missing. Good guess is in the offshore banks of the smarter thieves in the 1%.
2) It is still too early to tell. Iraq was perhaps a small part of a much bigger plan that is ongoing and might take sometime to complete.
3) Kurd's sort of running as a separate state in Iraq will bring benefits to the US and ensure ongoing conflict that will require dependency.
Exactly. What the left was trumpeting was that the war in Iraq was designed to turn over Iraqi oil to Exxon. The same worn out view that US goes to war on behalf of corporations. Poor Exxon lost oil bids to China even though they would pay full price for it. If I was in charge I would ask inked oil deals before I send on foot soldier into Iraq. They can always keep Saddam if they don't like the deal.