BREAKING: Margaret Thatcher dead at age 87

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#21
Yes the gap between the rich and the poor became wider due to her policies but who cares about the gap? As long as the poor are richer, why does it matter if the rich are much richer? What matters is that all levels of income have risen and the poor have much better standard of living than in the 70s. That's what matters.
You have just recited everything that liberalism is against. They never talk about enriching the poor. They always worry about the, you guessed it, "gap". You are supposed to feel good living in a shack with dirt floors if you are assured that everybody else lives like you. Make no mistake about it. If we don't have the government running our utility companies in America, yet, it is not because of lack of trying.
 

Behrooz_C

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2005
16,651
1,566
A small island west of Africa
#22
You have just recited everything that liberalism is against. They never talk about enriching the poor. They always worry about the, you guessed it, "gap". You are supposed to feel good living in a shack with dirt floors if you are assured that everybody else lives like you. Make no mistake about it. If we don't have the government running our utility companies in America, yet, it is not because of lack of trying.
Let's not call it liberalism because it's a hijacked word. Those people you call liberal in America are just liberal with other people's money. There is nothing else liberal about them.

Other than that, you are right. These people believe it's a zero-sum game. They show an incredible level of economic illiteracy. To modify an entire economy, one that is rotting to the core and is dysfunctional certainly takes time. You can only see the effects years later, even decades later. So far many British entrepreneurs have come out in support of Thatcher because she was the one who prepared the ground for their activities, which by the way took millions of people out of poverty. There are two kinds of broad ideology, one that says let's help people by giving them money, and another that says let's help people by giving them the means to make money for themselves. Thatcher fell in the latter group. She firmly believed that a rising tide will raise all ships and from a macroeconomics point of view, she was spot on.

She lifted the country out of a deeply socialist state with high taxes and little opportunity or incentive to create wealth. Few people have the depth of though to understand this.
 
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AFRIRAN

IPL Player
Jun 8, 2010
2,521
0
#23
....

Yes the gap between the rich and the poor became wider due to her policies but who cares about the gap? As long as the poor are richer, why does it matter if the rich are much richer? What matters is that all levels of income have risen and the poor have much better standard of living than in the 70s. That's what matters. ....

.

So why she is good and Ahmadinejad bad ? if you don't care about the gap it means that middle class vanishes and will become poor but with more income in compare with poor's income before , and rich get richer, numbers inn both side is increasing unfairly , is this not exactly what happened in Iran ? being ignorant to the gap is being ignorant to the healthy spreading wealth in society .


so nasty is your logic I must say...
 

AFRIRAN

IPL Player
Jun 8, 2010
2,521
0
#25
Daash Chinaski full yesterday afternoon I spent with one of my black Daashes ,british man who was living in Britain at Thatcher era ,he was not also a big fan of her, he said almost what you said , was calling one of her policies " selective prosperity " he gave me an article which ends like this :

She did indeed leave Britain "very, very much better", but only for some. She also left it in recession, with unemployment, inflation and interest rates rising. The causes of the present slump - unrestricted credit, deregulation and too much financial speculation - all date back to the 1980s. No successive government dared reverse these decisions: a blessing to her legacy, but a curse we must now all share.


I forgot about labors unions which faded away in her time.

Chaaks


انتشار خبر درگذشت مارگارت تاچر، نخست وزیر اسبق بریتانیا سبب برپایی پایکوبی هایی خودجوش در شمال بریتانیا از جمله گلاسکو در اسکاتلند و بلفاست در ایرلند شمالی شد.
 
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Oct 18, 2002
7,941
0
704 Houser
#26
Let's not call it liberalism because it's a hijacked word. Those people you call liberal in America are just liberal with other people's money. There is nothing else liberal about them.

Other than that, you are right. These people believe it's a zero-sum game. They show an incredible level of economic illiteracy. To modify an entire economy, one that is rotting to the core and is dysfunctional certainly takes time. You can only see the effects years later, even decades later. So far many British entrepreneurs have come out in support of Thatcher because she was the one who prepared the ground for their activities, which by the way took millions of people out of poverty. There are two kinds of broad ideology, one that says let's help people by giving them money, and another that says let's help people by giving them the means to make money for themselves. Thatcher fell in the latter group. She firmly believed that a rising tide will raise all ships and from a macroeconomics point of view, she was spot on.

She lifted the country out of a deeply socialist state with high taxes and little opportunity or incentive to create wealth. Few people have the depth of though to understand this.
Even worse than economic illiteracy is historical illiteracy. Although those things often coincide. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself what Thatcher was reversing and why those institutions were there in the first place? Probably not. You probably have no clue why I am asking you this anyway. What's the point?
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#27
It would be nice if everyone learnt to attach a couple of charts and references to their post to make their case, rather than just shooting darts in the dark, so that we can call learn something! Most people here are university educated and the information is now so readily available, that I don't think there's a need to have an emotional response rather than a factual one and make a case for her on either side of the spectrum (i.e. an angel or a evil) - unlike what one or two members here think, being able to carry out research shows your level of education not lack of it! ;)

There are a lot of things she did right and there are a lot of things she did wrong - like almost every other politician or human being. Where available it would be nice to include a chart with comparison to other countries to see if the phenomenon was local or international:

As far as income equality goes, she did widen the gap between the rich and the poor and the inequality in disposable income - for the former that trend has gotten even wore since she left(source: Daily Mail):

_57919089_share_income464x332.gif
article-2070099-0F0ED17A00000578-669_634x471.jpg
incomegains.gif

As far as inflation, it did have an overall downward trend down during her years and because it was done while the economy was growing, that's not considered a trivial feat in economics (source: economicshelp.org):

inflation-1910-2010.jpg
growth-quarterly-80-10.jpg
1980s-growth-inflation-500x324.jpg
 

Behrooz_C

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2005
16,651
1,566
A small island west of Africa
#28
So why she is good and Ahmadinejad bad ? if you don't care about the gap it means that middle class vanishes and will become poor but with more income in compare with poor's income before , and rich get richer, numbers inn both side is increasing unfairly , is this not exactly what happened in Iran ? being ignorant to the gap is being ignorant to the healthy spreading wealth in society .


so nasty is your logic I must say...
What a completely irrelevant comparison. You really expect a reasonable response to this rubbish?

Even worse than economic illiteracy is historical illiteracy. Although those things often coincide. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself what Thatcher was reversing and why those institutions were there in the first place? Probably not. You probably have no clue why I am asking you this anyway. What's the point?
Yep, you want some historical background? How far do you want me to go? Let's take Lloyd George's premiership and the introduction of the state pension in January 1909 whereby men aged 70 and above could claim between 2 and 5 shillings per week from the government. Now this seemed like a great idea because Britain was amongst the richest countries on earth thanks to the height of the empire, so they could afford it. It wasn't a big committment because back then the average male could expect to live to age 48. But Lloyd George initiated a social experiment that would soon spiral out of control. The government agreed to redistribute taxes to support people in their old age. On that day, more than any other, the modern welfare state began in earnest. The idea that Britain could face any kind of decline – financial or otherwise – had not yet entered mainstream thinking. They had not yet fought two crippling wars and could afford to pay for a welfare state, so why shouldn’t it be implemented?

However, the problem was: now the welfare state had started… no one had any idea where it would stop… or whether it could actually be stopped if it became unaffordable.

George had created a trap for the nation which then stepped right into it. "Please sir, can I have some more money"? It wasn’t until the Second World War was finally over that the welfare state really began to grow. Welfare was seen as a major part of “Winning the Peace”; keeping the forces of Socialism and Fascism at bay. Of course, politicians soon realised welfare wasn’t just a tool to win the peace. It was also incredibly effective at winning votes too. The government promised to look after you “from Cradle to Grave”. This single, powerful idea allowed the government to grow a size unimaginable just half a century earlier. But as it made more promises and got bigger, so did the cost. Everyone assumed they'd be able to pay for it forever. But they were wrong.

Politicians found themselves caught in this trap and any attempt to reduce the size of the welfare state was met with often violent resistance in the form of strikes and protests. Or the party trying to cut back – to do the sensible thing - was simply voted out of power. After all, an ever growing proportion of the population now benefitted from the welfare state, in one way or another. The safety net couldn’t just be pulled away. The government would forever be saddled with an expense that could ONLY grow.

Now I hope you have the ability to connect what I am saying to what Thatcher intended to do. It was difficult and she did not succeed all the way of course for the reasons I mentioned just above. But the premise is there. You can still insist I have no clue why you asked me that question but that's your prerogative!
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#29
So why she is good and Ahmadinejad bad ? if you don't care about the gap it means that middle class vanishes and will become poor but with more income in compare with poor's income before , and rich get richer, numbers inn both side is increasing unfairly , is this not exactly what happened in Iran ? being ignorant to the gap is being ignorant to the healthy spreading wealth in society .


so nasty is your logic I must say...
Please, you lose all credibility comparing Ahmadinejad with any politician in the west. Besides, your premise is wrong. I lose nothing if someone who makes a a million makes 10 million next year as long as I am making my $100,000. He could not have possibly taken the 10 million from me. Government can't fill the gap anyway. They have been at it since 1913 by shifting the tax burden up. 5% of the population pays upwards of 60% of all taxes and you still say there is a gap. I go as far as saying that a vibrant economy NEEDS income gaps. Anybody who signs your paycheck makes many times you do.
 
Oct 18, 2002
7,941
0
704 Houser
#30
Yep, you want some historical background? How far do you want me to go? Let's take Lloyd George's premiership and the introduction of the state pension in January 1909 whereby men aged 70 and above could claim between 2 and 5 shillings per week from the government. Now this seemed like a great idea because Britain was amongst the richest countries on earth thanks to the height of the empire, so they could afford it. It wasn't a big committment because back then the average male could expect to live to age 48. But Lloyd George initiated a social experiment that would soon spiral out of control. The government agreed to redistribute taxes to support people in their old age. On that day, more than any other, the modern welfare state began in earnest. The idea that Britain could face any kind of decline – financial or otherwise – had not yet entered mainstream thinking. They had not yet fought two crippling wars and could afford to pay for a welfare state, so why shouldn’t it be implemented?

However, the problem was: now the welfare state had started… no one had any idea where it would stop… or whether it could actually be stopped if it became unaffordable.

George had created a trap for the nation which then stepped right into it. "Please sir, can I have some more money"? It wasn’t until the Second World War was finally over that the welfare state really began to grow. Welfare was seen as a major part of “Winning the Peace”; keeping the forces of Socialism and Fascism at bay. Of course, politicians soon realised welfare wasn’t just a tool to win the peace. It was also incredibly effective at winning votes too. The government promised to look after you “from Cradle to Grave”. This single, powerful idea allowed the government to grow a size unimaginable just half a century earlier. But as it made more promises and got bigger, so did the cost. Everyone assumed they'd be able to pay for it forever. But they were wrong.

Politicians found themselves caught in this trap and any attempt to reduce the size of the welfare state was met with often violent resistance in the form of strikes and protests. Or the party trying to cut back – to do the sensible thing - was simply voted out of power. After all, an ever growing proportion of the population now benefitted from the welfare state, in one way or another. The safety net couldn’t just be pulled away. The government would forever be saddled with an expense that could ONLY grow.

Now I hope you have the ability to connect what I am saying to what Thatcher intended to do. It was difficult and she did not succeed all the way of course for the reasons I mentioned just above. But the premise is there. You can still insist I have no clue why you asked me that question but that's
You almost got there. But nice try.
 
Oct 18, 2010
6,271
849
#31
Please, you lose all credibility comparing Ahmadinejad with any politician in the west. Besides, your premise is wrong. I lose nothing if someone who makes a a million makes 10 million next year as long as I am making my $100,000. He could not have possibly taken the 10 million from me. Government can't fill the gap anyway. They have been at it since 1913 by shifting the tax burden up. 5% of the population pays upwards of 60% of all taxes and you still say there is a gap. I go as far as saying that a vibrant economy NEEDS income gaps. Anybody who signs your paycheck makes many times you do.
ahmadinejad can not be very happy either to be compared with a warmonger who started a useless war of choice and killed scores of brits and argentinians.on her economic and social policies it's enough to say "the growth of a nation can not be achieved by keeping the downtrodden down".we saw the lingering effects of her divisive social engineering in the london riots 2 years ago.it is very ironic that the woman who hated "socialism" will be getting a state funeral whose cost will be paid by "other people's money".i ordered the "witch is dead" already just to make it a hit.in short, i say "rip=rust in peace".
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
#32
ahmadinejad can not be very happy either to be compared with a warmonger who started a useless war of choice and killed scores of brits and argentinians.on her economic and social policies it's enough to say "the growth of a nation can not be achieved by keeping the downtrodden down".we saw the lingering effects of her divisive social engineering in the london riots 2 years ago.it is very ironic that the woman who hated "socialism" will be getting a state funeral whose cost will be paid by "other people's money".i ordered the "witch is dead" already just to make it a hit.in short, i say "rip=rust in peace".
You did not display a lot of class here, along with that buddy of yours Hassan kachal who "liked" your hate-filled post. Men are known by the company they keep. I am sure you are a life long liberal who as we all know are tolerant, kind, sensitive and celebrate diversity. Celebrating someone's death, someone who hasn't been in public life for 25 years, says amore about you than Lady Thatcher.
 
May 12, 2007
8,093
11
#34
Welocome to hell Margreth
If I was a beliver I knew that was the place she belonged to. She was the one who thought to his people to be selfish arrogant sun of a beach.
No I don't admire her for anything. Except that she was the one who figured out about Gorbatovs weaknesses and told Reagan about it.
 

Hassan1980

Bench Warmer
Feb 17, 2008
1,835
0
#35
You did not display a lot of class here, along with that buddy of yours Hassan kachal who "liked" your hate-filled post. Men are known by the company they keep. I am sure you are a life long liberal who as we all know are tolerant, kind, sensitive and celebrate diversity. Celebrating someone's death, someone who hasn't been in public life for 25 years, says amore about you than Lady Thatcher.
Lady Thatcher'eto beram man :)
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
#37
ahmadinejad can not be very happy either to be compared with a warmonger who started a useless war of choice and killed scores of brits and argentinians.
You can blame Tatcher for many things, but "starting the Falkland war" wasn't one of those. Wasn't the war started when the Argentinian army invaded the islands?
 
Oct 18, 2010
6,271
849
#38
the invasion did not cause any deaths.the witch chose to send an armada 8000 miles away to fight for the island which resulted in 3000 dead and wounded on both sides aside from the financial cost.it was a useless unnecessary war by all accounts.
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
#39
the invasion did not cause any deaths.the witch chose to send an armada 8000 miles away to fight for the island which resulted in 3000 dead and wounded on both sides aside from the financial cost.it was a useless unnecessary war by all accounts.
Seriously? So I suppose if Saudi Arabian army takes over Tunbs Islands you won't approve Iranian army taking them back,huh?

It was a totally unnecessary war by the Argentinian military junta, granted.