The Green That Turned Yellow Before Autumn

Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#1
Green, the color symbolizing life, vibrance and Spring, seemed an appropriate choice for the Iranian opposition movement that sprung into life during the disputed Iranian elections in late Spring. Uniting Iranians from all walks of life, young or old, at home or scattered throughout the world, it crossed lines of gender, religion, and political affiliations to become the symbol of life, hope, freedom, change and political growth.

What started out as a movement of the people, to protest the results of the election and demand more freedom, was quickly branded the “Green Movement” and its self proclaimed leaders, Mehdi Karroubi and Mir Hossein Mousavi, urged a calm and collected approach that would yield results from within the “system”. Their non-confrontational approach and repeated calls for peaceful protests finally allowed members of Iran’s Basij paramilitary force to gain control of the situation and the violent street protests slowly turned into herds of defenceless sheep being directed by dogs of a green variety into the slaughter-houses. A situation that could and should have escalated into mass strikes across the country and daily confrontations with tiring and increasingly ambivalent security forces, became a mere nightly cry of help to God from the roof-tops. The Green was a movement alright, but not the kind that Iranians had been hoping for. It was a simple relocation of the people from the streets into their houses.

Perhaps, it was very difficult for many Iranians including myself to see this at the time and the promise of change, talks of a referendum, continuing resistance and great resilience gave us a trickle of hope in these self-proclaimed leaders – so much so that we even chose to overlook their impressive resumes in serving the “system”. Of course, the change never came, not even in the slightest sense. There is less freedom in Iran today than before the so called Green Movement turned a potential revolution into "scattered groups of hooligans supported by Iran's enemies". There were no high-level meetings between the leaders of the Green Movement and labour organizations to arrange mass strikes or even demand their months of unpaid salaries from the authorities. There was no call to the Assembly of Experts to question the Supreme Leader. There is no agenda, no steps, no plan for any change and there never was.

We pinned our hopes in two individuals that are more Yellow than Green, their “movement” as stagnant as a tree whose leaves are turning yellow and succumbing to the winds of Autumn. I can’t help but think that the only thing Green in this whole episode is the color behind my ears. How easily we let two “unknown” individuals turn a people’s movement into their own, stagnate it and even turn it around to the point that we now show-up on the streets to support the Palestinians and contribute to anti US rallies! It may be hard to face the facts, but “tarhe maslehate nezaam” that received much opposition publicly, did have a great reception behind closed doors.

Friends are leaving jail one by one… Mr. Ahmadinejad is the elected president of the Islamic Republic after a historical turnout and a successful election… Mr. Rafsanjani continues to vow the Swiss, Austrians, Arabs and anyone else he can find to supplement his vast fortunes with a few more deals… The Americans and Israelis remain enemies of the system and supporters of the hooligans and terrorist groups, while involved in backdoor diplomacy with the Iranian regime… Mr. Khamenei is stronger than ever and heralding a new era of censorship and Islamic values in universities… And while we were busy gearing up for these rallies on regime sanctioned dates, the IRGC managed to widen its grip on Iran’s financial infrastructure with the money that will be cut from subsidies to the people! But there is some light at the end of the tunnel… The Green light that Mousavi has been given to buy this regime another 4 years after the 2013 elections, if he plays along like a good little boy until then. Yeah Hossein, Mir Hossein, you turned Yellow, long before the autumn.
 
Last edited:

khodam

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
2,458
88
Atlanta
#2
Wow! Very well-written piece in which I can't find anything to agree with. I disagree with almost every assumption or conclusion you make. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, your reading of this whole thing is way way off. It is as off as the reading of LA TVs were off of Khatami's presidency. I just hope that it's the frustration in you that is talking and not your logical self.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#4
Wow! Very well-written piece in which I can't find anything to agree with. I disagree with almost every assumption or conclusion you make. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, your reading of this whole thing is way way off. It is as off as the reading of LA TVs were off of Khatami's presidency. I just hope that it's the frustration in you that is talking and not your logical self.
Khodam jaan, are you sure you disagree with specific statements in there, or is it more like you don't really want to agree?! ;)

Surely, you agree that there's less freedom in Iran that there was 6 months ago. Surely, you agree that nothing has changed for the positive whatsoever. In fact, I think you'll be hard pressed to disagree with many of the other statements in there. Perhaps, it's just the collection of facts and the conclusions I'm derriving from them that you disagree with?

Please note that I'm not suggesting that the people's movement is over or there's no hope. I'm just stating the need to separate that from this "branded" Green Movement.
 
Oct 18, 2002
6,139
0
Los Angeles, CA USA
#5
Honestly I think the only thing that hasnt gone well is the leadership. I share Bi-Honar's disappointment with Mousavi. Surely the leader of such a movement can do better than "we must have free elections so keep getting your ass kicked in the streets, see you tomorrow at 8am when I will stick my head out of my car and wave"
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#6
... see you tomorrow at 8am when I will stick my head out of my car and wave"
LOL. It really has come down to that. I mean this guy has had 6 months to turn this movement into something more cohesive and even stronger than it started out, but he has managed to lose his support base and hasn't done anything symbolic or significant other than putting out some press releases once in a while. How many videos are we seeing today with "Ya Hossein, Mir Hossein" in them compared to two months ago? Why isn't he out there trying to get a freakin' permit for his supporters and picks regime sanctioned dates so it looks like everyone's supporting the regime? How many times has he specifically said I support this regime and Khomeini and even Khamenei? I'm afraid you can't have it both ways and sound intelligent. As a leader, he shouldn't be showing up to dinner parties when his firends and supporters are in jail. He just doesn't have what it takes - and that's the best case scenario.
 

khodam

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
2,458
88
Atlanta
#7
Khodam jaan, are you sure you disagree with specific statements in there, or is it more like you don't really want to agree?! ;)

Surely, you agree that there's less freedom in Iran that there was 6 months ago. Surely, you agree that nothing has changed for the positive whatsoever. In fact, I think you'll be hard pressed to disagree with many of the other statements in there. Perhaps, it's just the collection of facts and the conclusions I'm derriving from them that you disagree with?

Please note that I'm not suggesting that the people's movement is over or there's no hope. I'm just stating the need to separate that from this "branded" Green Movement.
There may be specific statements that I won't disagree with. That's why I didn't say I disagree with every sentence, but with every assumption and conclusion.

For example, I disagree with both statements you mention. It's valid to argue there is less freedom in Iran but one can also argue that there is more. People get beaten but at the same time they tear down Khamenei's picture. They stand up in his face and criticize him. I realize it is not exactly freedom, by western standards or any other standard. But things that you want to have that freedom to say, are being said, granted at a high cost. In other words, the cat is out of the bag. As to your statement that nothing has changed for better, I absolutely disagree with every modelcule in my body.

I'll try to explain why I disagree with you soon. I just don't know where to start. I think we are looking at this things from miles and miles apart.
 

khodam

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
2,458
88
Atlanta
#8
Honestly I think the only thing that hasnt gone well is the leadership. I share Bi-Honar's disappointment with Mousavi. Surely the leader of such a movement can do better than "we must have free elections so keep getting your ass kicked in the streets, see you tomorrow at 8am when I will stick my head out of my car and wave"
Please let this "leadership" thing go!!! Who the hell are Mousavi or Karoubi? Do you really chose to so insult people of Iran to suggest that they would accept Mousavi as the most qualified person in the country? Let go of this strange notion of "leaders". Leaders of this movement are Vahidnias, Masih Alinejad, Ghoochanis, etc. The young folks who have no claim of leadership but have driven this whole thing from the beginning. For ages, our politics has been "politicians taking advantage of people". For once our people have learned taht it should be "people taking advantage of politicians". If people are chanting Mousavi, it doesn't mean they have given him the flag of leadership; all it means is that there is strategic alignment of their goals.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#9
For example, I disagree with both statements you mention. It's valid to argue there is less freedom in Iran but one can also argue that there is more. People get beaten but at the same time they tear down Khamenei's picture.
I think you're mixing up people's movement and their frustration with freedom achieved through the Green Movement. There is no freedom that allows you to tear down Khamenei's picture, you get caught doing that you're going to jail. If you ask Mousavi or Karroubi whether they even support Khamenei's picture being torn, they will say no right in your face and mean it.

They stand up in his face and criticize him. I realize it is not exactly freedom, by western standards or any other standard. But things that you want to have that freedom to say, are being said, granted at a high cost.
Not through anything the Green Movement has done. This is simply the will and bravery of the people.

In other words, the cat is out of the bag.
The cat was already out of the bag. Both Karroubi and Mousavi have repeatedly said that this situation was out of control already and if it wasn't for them, the whole system would be in jeopardy (i.e. they have brought the dissent and protests under control and within the boundaries of the system).

As to your statement that nothing has changed for better, I absolutely disagree with every modelcule in my body.
I'll try to explain why I disagree with you. I just don't where to start. I think we are looking at this things from miles and miles apart.
Perhaps if you could start with one thing that has changed for the better, I can share your optimism. The fact is that since June, satellite signals are being blocked, more newspapers have been shut down, the access to the internet and SMS is even more limited, Basij is in universities and high schools stronger than ever, people's constitutional righs are being trampled on even more than before, etc., etc. I can't think of anything, not a single thing that has changed for the better.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#10
Please let this "leadership" thing go!!! Who the hell are Mousavi or Karoubi? Do you really chose to so insult people of Iran to suggest that they would accept Mousavi as the most qualified person in the country? Let go of this strange notion of "leaders". Leaders of this movement are Vahidnias, Masih Alinejad, Ghoochanis, etc. The young folks who have no claim of leadership but have driven this whole thing from the beginning. For ages, our politics has been "politicians taking advantage of people". For once our people have learned taht it should be "people taking advantage of politicians". If people are chanting Mousavi, it doesn't mean they have given him the flag of leadership; all it means is that there is strategic alignment of their goals.
Khodam jaan, these guys are the so called leaders of the Green Movement. If you're suggesting that there's another movement, which is temporarily aligned with the Green Movement (or lackthereof), it is not this "aligned movement" that I am referring to in my article. In fact, my aim is actually to seprate what is being branded as the Green Movement and the people's movment at this very critical juncture in time.
 
Last edited:
Oct 18, 2002
6,139
0
Los Angeles, CA USA
#11
Khodam,
I think you are misunderstanding the argument. There is a difference between what the people are willing to do (greatly increased) and what has systematically improved (nothing). Yes the people are braver and more willing to show resistance and demonstrate, but what is allowed, the access they are given, and the means of communication have been drastically reduced. It is the job of Mousavi, Karoubi, and the other useless "reform leaders" to use the people's courage and bloodshed as currency to get real systematic change accomplished.

Just because the victim screams louder, doesnt mean they have improved their situation. A louder scream just means the situation is getting worse.

While I applaud the people's bravery through my own tears, Im disgusted by the socalled people within the system wasting this opportunity...
 

khodam

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
2,458
88
Atlanta
#12
Bi-honar jan,

The movement I'm talking about are the people who were on the streets today, on Ghods, etc. I'm calling it the green movement for the lack of a better name. I also don't like this color cliche but that's what people have picked up.

My point here is that this process, i.e. the process of betterment of our country, is like pregnancy. It'll be painful and there will be misery, plenty of it. But giving birth to anything is going to be painful and uncomfortable.

Maybe we can get this discussion somewhere before Goroohban Ghandali is back to paberahneh jump in the middle of our discussion. But bear with me and let me start from a while back. I may not be online much tonight but we can carry this discussion on in the coming days. At the very least we'll get to know each other's perspective. If you agree, the question that I want to start with is this: Do you consider Khatami's presidency a success or failure?
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#13
Bi-honar jan,
The movement I'm talking about are the people who were on the streets today, on Ghods, etc. I'm calling it the green movement for the lack of a better name. I also don't like this color cliche but that's what people have picked up.

My point here is that this process, i.e. the process of betterment of our country, is like pregnancy. It'll be painful and there will be misery, plenty of it. But giving birth to anything is going to be painful and uncomfortable.
I'm glad you made that distinction Khodam jaan. This is definitely not the movement that I'm referring to in the article and I agree with your 2nd pragraph full heartedly. I'm merely suggesting the Mousavi & Karroubi "stole" (for lack of a better word) this people's movement and branded it the Green Movement, called themselves the leaders and have tried to limit its approach, potential and demands. I stronlgy believe that within the next few months another name will emerge for this people's movement and the sooner this mis-alignment ;) issue is resolved the more successful the people will be

Maybe we can get this discussion somewhere before Goroohban Ghandali is back to paberahneh jump in the middle of our discussion. But bear with me and let me start from a while back. I may not be online much tonight but we can carry this discussion on in the coming days. At the very least we'll get to know each other's perspective. If you agree, the question that I want to start with is this: Do you consider Khatami's presidency a success or failure?
LOL. Sounds like a plan. I will answer your initial question in stages. Khatami's presidency was definitely a success for Iran, albeit a temproary one, in many fields, the most significant ones being international relations, deomstic freedoms, sports and economic development. It has also been a success for the "system" in the long term as it ligitimized its existence and shattered people's perceptions that this sytem is all bad. At the end of the day, Khatami's presidency has brought us to this gloomy point in our history, so if you twisted my arm into making a statement of whether as whole it was a success for Iran and Iranians or the Iranian regime, I would have to go with the latter - again overall and as a whole.
 

khodam

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
2,458
88
Atlanta
#15
I'm glad you made that distinction Khodam jaan. This is definitely not the movement that I'm referring to in the article and I agree with your 2nd pragraph full heartedly. I'm merely suggesting the Mousavi & Karroubi "stole" (for lack of a better word) this people's movement and branded it the Green Movement, called themselves the leaders and have tried to limit its approach, potential and demands. I stronlgy believe that within the next few months another name will emerge for this people's movement and the sooner this mis-alignment ;) issue is resolved the more successful the people will be
Why do you say Karoubi or Mousavi people's movement? Who made them the owners or leaders? Have they made any claim to be that? If anything I'd be more worried about likes of Makhmalbaf or Sazgara but that's another story. I think at least Mousavi at numerous occasions has said explicitly that he's not a leader of this movement. I don't think people consider him THE leader either. They may follow him or chant for him, but I don't believe he will be accepted as the leader of this movement. People want him to be the president but that's not the same thing.


LOL. Sounds like a plan. I will answer your initial question in stages. Khatami's presidency was definitely a success for Iran, albeit a temproary one, in many fields, the most significant ones being international relations, deomstic freedoms, sports and economic development. It has also been a success for the "system" in the long term as it ligitimized its existence and shattered people's perceptions that this sytem is all bad. At the end of the day, Khatami's presidency has brought us to this gloomy point in our history, so if you twisted my arm into making a statement of whether as whole it was a success for Iran and Iranians or the Iranian regime, I would have to go with the latter - again overall and as a whole.
I think this takes us the root of our disagreement. Let me follow up with another question. What did Khatami need to achieve for you consider his presidency a success?
 
Oct 18, 2002
6,139
0
Los Angeles, CA USA
#16
What did Khatami need to achieve for you consider his presidency a success?
Changes that could be felt for a generation. Not for 6 months. Everything he "did" was wiped out by Ahmadinejad in a year. Real accomplishments aren't wiped out so easily. His accomplishments were all temporary or just an illusion. I think an aspect of the people's frustration and anger is that the political process in general, not just the electoral process, has seriously failed them. That includes Khatami's presidency as well.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#17
Why do you say Karoubi or Mousavi people's movement? Who made them the owners or leaders? Have they made any claim to be that? If anything I'd be more worried about likes of Makhmalbaf or Sazgara but that's another story. I think at least Mousavi at numerous occasions has said explicitly that he's not a leader of this movement. I don't think people consider him THE leader either. They may follow him or chant for him, but I don't believe he will be accepted as the leader of this movement. People want him to be the president but that's not the same thing.
Khodam jaan, I think you're redefining some commonly accepted terms here. Mousavi is the leader of the "Green Movement". He has been from the first day (in fact, that was the color of his campaign) and later used that term to bring the "people's movement" under his own umbrella which quickly include Khatami and later through some more loose affiliations, Karroubi. He collected signatures online in support of his so called Green Movement. They have proxies travelling the word giving speaches under this name and defining its aims, etc. If you type "Iran's Green Movement" & Wikipeda in Google, you'll see who is being presented as the leader of this people's movement that "they" are calling the Green Movmenet and through that name, have been controlling since the start.

I think this takes us the root of our disagreement. Let me follow up with another question. What did Khatami need to achieve for you consider his presidency a success?
I thought I did say that his presidency WAS A SUCCESS. It was more of a success (i.e. longer term) for the "system" and less of a success for Iran and Iranians (i.e. shorter term). I also exaplined the reasons behind my position. And I agree with what Farbo said as well.
 

khodam

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
2,458
88
Atlanta
#18
Changes that could be felt for a generation. Not for 6 months. Everything he "did" was wiped out by Ahmadinejad in a year. Real accomplishments aren't wiped out so easily. His accomplishments were all temporary or just an illusion. I think an aspect of the people's frustration and anger is that the political process in general, not just the electoral process, has seriously failed them. That includes Khatami's presidency as well.
That is a vague answer that is open to interpretation; not what I expected from a lawyer! I can argue that what he did is still valid and then we get to arguments around and around. I'm looking for concrete and explicit achievements that you think would have made him a successful president.
 
Jun 9, 2004
13,753
1
Canada
#19
Well, what's your position Khodam jaan? Usually, when you ask a question, you get asked a question! ;) Do you think Khatami's presidency was a success in every sense and if so why? And what concrete examples of his achievements and success can you give us?
 
Oct 18, 2002
6,139
0
Los Angeles, CA USA
#20
That is a vague answer that is open to interpretation; not what I expected from a lawyer! I can argue that what he did is still valid and then we get to arguments around and around. I'm looking for concrete and explicit achievements that you think would have made him a successful president.
LOL. No need to get personal aziz ;)

Your question is a blanket hypothetical. Hard not to answer in vague terms because there is context and relevance to everything. Just for arguments sake I will throw somethings out there.

Equality for women.
More power for ELECTED positions as opposed to Unelected positions in the government.
More transparency in government.
Better long term economic model and opportunity.
A drastic modernization of the legal system.
An actual reform platform, not just the "less evil" position by the reformers.

The main thing is. If his presidency were a success, there would be no Ahmadinejad, and at a minimum, this movement wouldve started the first time he was elected...