abouzar said:
lol it's always the same three camps..
the iri supporters.. ashtar, reza and chief who support whatever iri says or does (didn't really require naming)
the shahis and all the others who have been in the u.s. or europe so long that if there was a war with iran .. they would be on the u.s. side just so that they can show they hate iri.. they identify a lot more with the country they reside in or at least the west in general than iran and will not accept any argument as to the real motivation of the u.s. etc. no need for names.. this group ofcourse will always identify themselves as iranian and a group who are very proud of their heritage.. but really they don't identify with it at all!
and then there's the objective group that doesn't belong to any particular group or anything.. they just want to see a free iran.. free from iri.. free from the west.. free to practice islam if they want but also free to have any other religion or none at all.. they don't want bombs on their own people because they still think of iran as their home.. they don't submit to any one ideology but are actively seeking the best way to benefit iran and IRANIANS (not just the ones living in the west).. people like PN, bijan, iranpaak, westi.. etc..
anyways.. i haven't seen a single person from any of these groups change their mind or stance all this while.. although shahinc sometimes switches between 2nd and 3rd group although really belongs to the 3rd group.. but it certainly makes interesting reading..
thanks for all the articles!
the iri supporters.. ashtar, reza and chief who support whatever iri says or does (didn't really require naming)
the shahis and all the others who have been in the u.s. or europe so long that if there was a war with iran .. they would be on the u.s. side just so that they can show they hate iri.. they identify a lot more with the country they reside in or at least the west in general than iran and will not accept any argument as to the real motivation of the u.s. etc. no need for names.. this group ofcourse will always identify themselves as iranian and a group who are very proud of their heritage.. but really they don't identify with it at all!
and then there's the objective group that doesn't belong to any particular group or anything.. they just want to see a free iran.. free from iri.. free from the west.. free to practice islam if they want but also free to have any other religion or none at all.. they don't want bombs on their own people because they still think of iran as their home.. they don't submit to any one ideology but are actively seeking the best way to benefit iran and IRANIANS (not just the ones living in the west).. people like PN, bijan, iranpaak, westi.. etc..
anyways.. i haven't seen a single person from any of these groups change their mind or stance all this while.. although shahinc sometimes switches between 2nd and 3rd group although really belongs to the 3rd group.. but it certainly makes interesting reading..
thanks for all the articles!
My limited and narrow understanding of things have taken me to great places I don’t participate in many of the political discussions on this site because of what Abz pointed out without attacking any single group. He simply put things out on the table the way they are and respected every group when he did unlike many people who go on day by day thinking they are better and their thoughts are better leaving no room for others to disagree.
Oh, and I could have told you a long time ago that Iran was in BIIIIIIIIG trouble. Not because of AN or IRI but because of us Iranian’s in general.
I’ve always liked how serious you take yourself
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL… That poll was great. It’s sad that Beystr does not remember it. Maybe his buddy can remind him.
I don’t participate in many of the political discussions on this site because of what Abz pointed out without attacking any single group. He simply put things out on the table the way they are and respected every group when he did unlike many people who go on day by day thinking they are better and their thoughts are better leaving no room for others to disagree. Oh, and I could have told you a long time ago that Iran was in BIIIIIIIIG trouble. Not because of AN or IRI but because of us Iranian’s in general.
I’ve always liked how serious you take yourself
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL… That poll was great. It’s sad that Beystr does not remember it. Maybe his buddy can remind him.
abouzar said:
lol it's always the same three camps..
the iri supporters.. ashtar, reza and chief who support whatever iri says or does (didn't really require naming)
the shahis and all the others who have been in the u.s. or europe so long that if there was a war with iran .. they would be on the u.s. side just so that they can show they hate iri.. they identify a lot more with the country they reside in or at least the west in general than iran and will not accept any argument as to the real motivation of the u.s. etc. no need for names.. this group ofcourse will always identify themselves as iranian and a group who are very proud of their heritage.. but really they don't identify with it at all!
and then there's the objective group that doesn't belong to any particular group or anything.. they just want to see a free iran.. free from iri.. free from the west.. free to practice islam if they want but also free to have any other religion or none at all.. they don't want bombs on their own people because they still think of iran as their home.. they don't submit to any one ideology but are actively seeking the best way to benefit iran and IRANIANS (not just the ones living in the west).. people like PN, bijan, iranpaak, westi.. etc..
anyways.. i haven't seen a single person from any of these groups change their mind or stance all this while.. although shahinc sometimes switches between 2nd and 3rd group although really belongs to the 3rd group.. but it certainly makes interesting reading..
thanks for all the articles!
the iri supporters.. ashtar, reza and chief who support whatever iri says or does (didn't really require naming)
the shahis and all the others who have been in the u.s. or europe so long that if there was a war with iran .. they would be on the u.s. side just so that they can show they hate iri.. they identify a lot more with the country they reside in or at least the west in general than iran and will not accept any argument as to the real motivation of the u.s. etc. no need for names.. this group ofcourse will always identify themselves as iranian and a group who are very proud of their heritage.. but really they don't identify with it at all!
and then there's the objective group that doesn't belong to any particular group or anything.. they just want to see a free iran.. free from iri.. free from the west.. free to practice islam if they want but also free to have any other religion or none at all.. they don't want bombs on their own people because they still think of iran as their home.. they don't submit to any one ideology but are actively seeking the best way to benefit iran and IRANIANS (not just the ones living in the west).. people like PN, bijan, iranpaak, westi.. etc..
anyways.. i haven't seen a single person from any of these groups change their mind or stance all this while.. although shahinc sometimes switches between 2nd and 3rd group although really belongs to the 3rd group.. but it certainly makes interesting reading..
thanks for all the articles!
agar keh ayAn bood cheh hAjat beh bayAn bood?
But I have to say that not only I don't belong to the first group that you mentioned I would say I (and perhaps others you mentioned) belong to a fourth group that you failed to mention.
The 4th group I would say are (like your 3rd group with some highlighted differences):
"Objective group that doesn't belong to any particular group or anything.. they just want to see a free iran. free from the West and the East.. free to practice Islam if they want but also free to have any other religion or none at all.. they don't want bombs on their own people because they still think of iran as their home.. they do not submit to any one political group but are actively seeking the best way to benefit iran and IRANIANS (not just the ones living in the west)."
This group differs from the 3rd group in that an Iran free from IR is not it's prerequisite. You see, this is a huge difference. Because while on one hand you claim that your group wants to respect all religions and political groups in reality it is specifically intolerant of an Islamic rule (or Islamic influence in the rule) EVEN IF IT HAPPENS TO BE WHAT THE MAJORITY WANTS. And thus by your own definition you have an exclusionary ideology where as the group that I like to belong to has an inclusive viewpoint. Simply put, your group (like group 2) believe in democracy so long as and only and I mean only until the democracy suits and conforms with your views and wishes.
Your group 3 thinks that the supporters of IR are a small insignificant group that can and ought to be excluded from Iranian politics and society and I think even if they were a small group (which I don't think they are) they are still a significant part of society that ought not be simply excluded.
You believe that systems and people are not redeemable or reformable. To this end, you believe in completely getting rid of any system or government that doesn't suit your liking and restarting everything from scratch every time. But people in my group believe that systems/governments and people are reformable. To this end we don't believe in destroying every foundation and institution and rebuilding everything AGAIN from scratch (like the revolutionaries did after Shah). This group believes in modifying and reforming the shortcomings and strengthening the positives (which they try to recognize and you try to dismiss as mere propaganda or lies all the time).
Because getting rid of IR is such an essential part of your ideology your group feels obligated to demonize everything done by IR in order to justify its dogmatic ideology. And because of your dogmatic ideology you view people as either with you or against you.
Ashtar khan,
U don't see me come here everyday and say Ahmadi nejad or IRI this or that u all know the news better than god perhaps.
However how long do u give any particular government especially when they have been fuck up most of their life if not all of it..and if one has any brain knows this system is flawed from the first kolang........
so if ths system refuses to go by khahesh meekonam or hata worse...then what kind of person goes and lives somewhere else and then tries to justify IRI?
U don't see me come here everyday and say Ahmadi nejad or IRI this or that u all know the news better than god perhaps.
However how long do u give any particular government especially when they have been fuck up most of their life if not all of it..and if one has any brain knows this system is flawed from the first kolang........
so if ths system refuses to go by khahesh meekonam or hata worse...then what kind of person goes and lives somewhere else and then tries to justify IRI?
Dear Ashtar, thanks for the post.
What is reform to you? Under the reforms, will other political parties be participate or will it be one man, the valigh faghih who decides who can participate. In your system, does the elected people get to have the power or saying is it the valieh Faghih who dicates all the important institutions? In your system, does Sharia law the law of the country although most disagree with it? In your reform system, will the majority of the population whether muslim or not have to live and obey the law of the fundamentalist muslim or will it be the law of the majority? Will akhoods continue to be in full control or will it be the people who elect who controls?
In another word, will it be democracy for majority or democracy for the small percentage of the clerics?
Ashtar, I like to add, that any future democracy in Iran must include everyone particpating. We want democracy not dictatorship.
What is reform to you? Under the reforms, will other political parties be participate or will it be one man, the valigh faghih who decides who can participate. In your system, does the elected people get to have the power or saying is it the valieh Faghih who dicates all the important institutions? In your system, does Sharia law the law of the country although most disagree with it? In your reform system, will the majority of the population whether muslim or not have to live and obey the law of the fundamentalist muslim or will it be the law of the majority? Will akhoods continue to be in full control or will it be the people who elect who controls?
In another word, will it be democracy for majority or democracy for the small percentage of the clerics?
Ashtar, I like to add, that any future democracy in Iran must include everyone particpating. We want democracy not dictatorship.
Already posted here:
http://www.specialisp.com/community/showthread.php?t=17790
But it deserved it's own thread anyway just to get the reaction
http://www.specialisp.com/community/showthread.php?t=17790
But it deserved it's own thread anyway just to get the reaction
Great response ashtar jan. I can say that I also belong to the group which you described, a group which belives in free and prosperous Iran. Iran which we can be proud of its herritage and religion. I am aware of shortcommings of the current regime. There is no point coming and saying it here, there is already a sea of exaggurated negatives on this forum. In real life when I am talking to unbiased people or people who are pro-Islamic republic, I am somehow critical to some aspect of the regime. However, in general I am with the current regime, because as you said the wrongs can be gradually put right in the evolutionar process which is going on.
Agha ashtar,
I am an Iranian. I also happen to be a Moslem.
If tomorrow I were asked to choose between Iran and Islam, I’d first laugh at the person asking and then I’d say I’d choose Iran.
You see, to me a religion is something extremely personal. A person either is a Moslem or he/she is not. I cannot force you to be one nor can I force you to stop being one.
But, this is exactly what IRI has proceeded to do for its entire existence.
Currently, Iranians Moslems will be executed if they choose to convert to some other religion. Similarly, Iranian Bahais are demonized and our fellow Christian and Jew countrymen marginalized.
Right around the beginning of the revolution, Ayatollah Kahlkhali – a butcher, according to many – was asked which came first to him, Iran or Islam. He did not hesitate before answering Islam! He then went on to propose to change the name of the Persian Gulf to some ridiculous name such as the Islamic Gulf.
According to Webster dictionary, a patriot is one who LOVES, SUPPORTS, and DEFENDS one’s country, NOT religion! Seems to me, Mr. Khalkhaly qualifies as the very essence of a non-patriot!
If, as you say, IRI was such an INCLUSIVE form of government, and for one second forgetting about all it has done to harm IRANIAN national interests, why execute any Iranian who converts? Why exclude Bahais? What if someone decides they want to be atheists? What about including these people?
In a short 26 years, IRI has managed to turn an entire generation of Iranian youth against Islam!
But, contrary to the Islam practiced by the Mullahs Islam is NOT a religion only preoccupied with matters from waist down. In fact, true Islam is concerned with human SPIRIT more than anything else! Show me one place in Quran that requires women to cover themselves and relinquish their roles into second class citizens! If our so called Ayatollahs and Hojattoleslams cannot restrain themselves when they see an attractive woman walk by – regardless of what she’s wearing – it does not give them a license to destroy an entire religion!
Contrary to the view created by these gentlemen (!) Islam is a religion of love, spirituality, and understanding.
And, no one is against the popular will. If a majority of Iranians want this mockery of Islam then so be it. But, how do we know that is the case when the Majlesseh Khobregan keeps vetting candidates, allowing only hand picked candidates to run, essentially giving people no choice at all?
And, no one is against reform. I am one of the people that are in fact for it. But, just because one is for reform – rather than wholesale destruction of the regime and starting from scratch -- it does not mean that one then closes one’s eyes to the regime's crimes, corruption, and anti-Iranian behavior!
I feel for the Palestinian plight and staunchly oppose Israeli policies towards them. But, that doesn’t mean I am going to stop supporting my own family, leaving them to fend for themselves so that I can support he Palestinian cause! That is exactly what IRI has been doing for its entire existence!
When Iran is suffering from double-digit inflation and addiction, prostitution, unemployment, lack of opportunity, loss of international prestige and the accompanying loss of power are the order of the day, why does IRI have to spend ANY money on Hezbollah to fight Israel? What is that old saying? “Cheraaghi Keh Beh Khaaneh Ravaast, Beh Masjed Haraamast!!” If as you say, Mr. Ahmadinejad is for “Advancement of sciences” then why not just shut the hell up and get on with he job? Why, when he knows Iran is completely surrounded on all sides by American forces, does he have to go and INVITE an American or Israeli attack when he doesn’t have to? Does he not care about Iranian people’s lives, Iranian history, heritage, and sovereignty? Does this alone not make Ahmadinejad and the whole IRI eligible for the title of a traitorous system?!
I am a PRACTIING Moslem. I pray five times a day, I meditate, and I keep my body athletic and my mind clean, active, and sharp. THIS to me is Islam! It is EXTREMELY personal. This is also Hejab, Piousness, and righteousness. Nevertheless, you will NEVER catch me arguing what I do as good or bad as it is MY belief, MY understanding, and MY discovery of what god means to me!
Human soul is a funny thing. Just like you cannot shove Democracy down its throat, you cannot force it to accept any religion!
You see, agha ashtar, I oppose Iranian Shahollahis for the same reason I oppose Iranian Hezbollahis. They both propose a dogmatic view, with disregard to what is truly good for Iran! And, one is a natural reaction to the other. Just like Ahmadinejad and Bush – two of a kind demagogues – remove one from the equation and I guarantee you that the other will just go away as well!
If AN truly cared about Iran, he would not mess with the hornet’s nest that is the American Imperial ambitions. If not for the truly reactionary character of the IRI, no one would care if Iran had nuclear weapons!
I am an Iranian. I also happen to be a Moslem.
If tomorrow I were asked to choose between Iran and Islam, I’d first laugh at the person asking and then I’d say I’d choose Iran.
You see, to me a religion is something extremely personal. A person either is a Moslem or he/she is not. I cannot force you to be one nor can I force you to stop being one.
But, this is exactly what IRI has proceeded to do for its entire existence.
Currently, Iranians Moslems will be executed if they choose to convert to some other religion. Similarly, Iranian Bahais are demonized and our fellow Christian and Jew countrymen marginalized.
Right around the beginning of the revolution, Ayatollah Kahlkhali – a butcher, according to many – was asked which came first to him, Iran or Islam. He did not hesitate before answering Islam! He then went on to propose to change the name of the Persian Gulf to some ridiculous name such as the Islamic Gulf.
According to Webster dictionary, a patriot is one who LOVES, SUPPORTS, and DEFENDS one’s country, NOT religion! Seems to me, Mr. Khalkhaly qualifies as the very essence of a non-patriot!
If, as you say, IRI was such an INCLUSIVE form of government, and for one second forgetting about all it has done to harm IRANIAN national interests, why execute any Iranian who converts? Why exclude Bahais? What if someone decides they want to be atheists? What about including these people?
In a short 26 years, IRI has managed to turn an entire generation of Iranian youth against Islam!
But, contrary to the Islam practiced by the Mullahs Islam is NOT a religion only preoccupied with matters from waist down. In fact, true Islam is concerned with human SPIRIT more than anything else! Show me one place in Quran that requires women to cover themselves and relinquish their roles into second class citizens! If our so called Ayatollahs and Hojattoleslams cannot restrain themselves when they see an attractive woman walk by – regardless of what she’s wearing – it does not give them a license to destroy an entire religion!
Contrary to the view created by these gentlemen (!) Islam is a religion of love, spirituality, and understanding.
And, no one is against the popular will. If a majority of Iranians want this mockery of Islam then so be it. But, how do we know that is the case when the Majlesseh Khobregan keeps vetting candidates, allowing only hand picked candidates to run, essentially giving people no choice at all?
And, no one is against reform. I am one of the people that are in fact for it. But, just because one is for reform – rather than wholesale destruction of the regime and starting from scratch -- it does not mean that one then closes one’s eyes to the regime's crimes, corruption, and anti-Iranian behavior!
I feel for the Palestinian plight and staunchly oppose Israeli policies towards them. But, that doesn’t mean I am going to stop supporting my own family, leaving them to fend for themselves so that I can support he Palestinian cause! That is exactly what IRI has been doing for its entire existence!
When Iran is suffering from double-digit inflation and addiction, prostitution, unemployment, lack of opportunity, loss of international prestige and the accompanying loss of power are the order of the day, why does IRI have to spend ANY money on Hezbollah to fight Israel? What is that old saying? “Cheraaghi Keh Beh Khaaneh Ravaast, Beh Masjed Haraamast!!” If as you say, Mr. Ahmadinejad is for “Advancement of sciences” then why not just shut the hell up and get on with he job? Why, when he knows Iran is completely surrounded on all sides by American forces, does he have to go and INVITE an American or Israeli attack when he doesn’t have to? Does he not care about Iranian people’s lives, Iranian history, heritage, and sovereignty? Does this alone not make Ahmadinejad and the whole IRI eligible for the title of a traitorous system?!
I am a PRACTIING Moslem. I pray five times a day, I meditate, and I keep my body athletic and my mind clean, active, and sharp. THIS to me is Islam! It is EXTREMELY personal. This is also Hejab, Piousness, and righteousness. Nevertheless, you will NEVER catch me arguing what I do as good or bad as it is MY belief, MY understanding, and MY discovery of what god means to me!
Human soul is a funny thing. Just like you cannot shove Democracy down its throat, you cannot force it to accept any religion!
You see, agha ashtar, I oppose Iranian Shahollahis for the same reason I oppose Iranian Hezbollahis. They both propose a dogmatic view, with disregard to what is truly good for Iran! And, one is a natural reaction to the other. Just like Ahmadinejad and Bush – two of a kind demagogues – remove one from the equation and I guarantee you that the other will just go away as well!
If AN truly cared about Iran, he would not mess with the hornet’s nest that is the American Imperial ambitions. If not for the truly reactionary character of the IRI, no one would care if Iran had nuclear weapons!
PN jon,
good post ..Islam like any man made thing has its flaws, for reasons we all know we have manage to basterdize this already bastard..........so the Islam practiced by IRI and many Iriianians is missing the whole point about god and therefore is aform of bootparasti....but We Iranians like to be god fearing religious people but we have managed to set god aside...and grab at say Mahdi or Ali Chaghookesh or hussein be kale..all these people that did not know god if their diiiiiik were dependent on it.
good post ..Islam like any man made thing has its flaws, for reasons we all know we have manage to basterdize this already bastard..........so the Islam practiced by IRI and many Iriianians is missing the whole point about god and therefore is aform of bootparasti....but We Iranians like to be god fearing religious people but we have managed to set god aside...and grab at say Mahdi or Ali Chaghookesh or hussein be kale..all these people that did not know god if their diiiiiik were dependent on it.
Yeh I remember that poll - I am sure Behrang and Abouzar consider it their biggest and most successful debate here on ISP ever !! eep:
To realy see how serious people are taken - juts read the posts Behrang jaan - and to realy realy understand why I don't take you so seriously go read some of your posts/logic in the past year - on any issue - if there are any. That goes for U 2 lew. I can't recall the last time you boyz came up with anything of substance here - except your 2 cents on football issues which more often than not was worth just that - 2 cents.
Now go think of another way to discredit me - start your PM campaigneep: - :cheers: - why not - this kind of BS has worked for IRI for 27 years.
eep: To realy see how serious people are taken - juts read the posts Behrang jaan - and to realy realy understand why I don't take you so seriously go read some of your posts/logic in the past year - on any issue - if there are any. That goes for U 2 lew. I can't recall the last time you boyz came up with anything of substance here - except your 2 cents on football issues which more often than not was worth just that - 2 cents.
Now go think of another way to discredit me - start your PM campaign
eep: - :cheers: - why not - this kind of BS has worked for IRI for 27 years.