this is just fucked up...

Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
LOOOOOOLLLLLL, You are so full of HATE, so full of PREJUDICE, so BLINDED by your BIASES that discussing anything with you is a WASTE OF TIME :)

You have shown many times here that HISTORY, FATCS, LOGIC has no place in the discussion when you are talking about Israel/Palestine conflict.

For you it is SIMPLE, one side is 100% right and the other is 100% wrong. One side is EVIL and the other is VICTIMS. Your mind is made up even if it is in the expense of ignoring history and logic.

As I said earlier, people like you are the reasons why Hamas and Netanyahu are in power and why innocent people are dying and why this conflict will never resolve.

Good Luck my friend.
What he stated are pure facts. You're a baha'i right? I think your prejudice whenever Islam/Muslims are in the discourse is stopping you from looking a this objectively.
 

Behrooz_C

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2005
16,651
1,566
A small island west of Africa
I am a proponent of the state of Israel. But to be honest, when things like this happen I find it very hard to defend them. It's not the first time that Netanyahou has acted like this and it won't be the last. He is as maniac as the fanatics he accuses on the other side.
 

shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
What he stated are pure facts. You're a baha'i right? I think your prejudice whenever Islam/Muslims are in the discourse is stopping you from looking a this objectively.
Being a born to a Bahai family has nothing to do with the state of having prejudice toward Islam. This is again another statement that shows your own prejudice and ignorance.

I am however against any political ideology that kills and tortures others for expressing a different opinion be it a RADICAL ISLAM, RADICAL CHRISTIANITY or JUDAISM and ...

What Mr. Lord... states are FAR FROM FACTS and are nothing but a fabricated LIES and PROPAGANDA.

That being said, you are smarter and more informed to come and say a statement like that which by itself shows your own prejeduce to call his post a "pure fact" or play the " Bahai card" which was uncalled for unless you, yourself have prejudice on this issue because you are a muslim.

The moment one person decides to ignore the FACT that there are TWO PLAYERS here which are prolonging this conflict over the years, the monument anyone decides to ignore the FACTS that there are extremist on BOTH SIDE who benefit from prolonging the killings, the moment one decides to ignore the FACTS that there are outside powers in the region and across the world who want the BLOODSHED to continue from both side, and instead want to finger point and ONLY blame ONE SIDE and wants to make this an ABSOLUTE EVENT and turn this conflict into a EVIL vs GOOD , then they are ignoring FACTS.

It is that simple.
 
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shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
I have many Israeli friends and no Palastinians.
Hard to believe my friend, very hard to believe ;)

As far as 1967 border goes, I wish you were more TRUTHFUL and honest here so we could at least try to have a conversation on this matter but you are not and we both know that. your problems are not the 1967 borders :) by the way what happened in 1967 ??
 
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shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
I am a proponent of the state of Israel. But to be honest, when things like this happen I find it very hard to defend them. It's not the first time that Netanyahou has acted like this and it won't be the last. He is as maniac as the fanatics he accuses on the other side.
Netanyahou and his party are the Israel version of Hamas whose policies have proven to not benefit anyone in that region. His survival also depends on the fanaticism that he fuels by spreading hate and making the other side look more evil and dangerous than they are.
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
It is that simple.
I read his post, saw your reply, and you didn't address anything yet wail on. I've yet to see you ever be measured when it comes to Islam/Muslims. I can understand that, since Baha'is have suffered a lot under them; but it's not excusable. You might be offended by this observation, but I'm just calling it how I see it. And it has nothing to do with baha'is in general or your family. I only made a comment about you. I have many baha'i friends myself.

The minute someone tries to portray this conflict as if the two parties are equally bad or when they consistently try to appeal on those grounds, as if there is a moral equivalency or as if we're disenfranchising Israeli supporters I think there is something more than a play at fairness. As the Iranians say, kase zire nim kase.

The Israeli's are illegally occupying Palestine. Not only that, they have illegally built up a blockade. This is has already been decided upon in international law - even when pro-zionist or pro-isreal jurists have been at the helm; the discussions have always been one-sidedly against Israel. Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. In fact, they have the right to self-determination which Israel constantly tries to deny them. So when people try to paint this out as if the two sides of the story will weigh equally, they're misinformed at best or have an agenda at worst. And let's stop pretending Israelis are going to deep measures out of fear - their people might be due to their politicians stoking the fires but not anyone in a position of power - as they could probably take on the whole arab world by themselves.

Unfortunately, as has been shown throughout human history; people often, through their own warped realities, can justify killing to the point of genocide. The Israelis, explicitly from their own talking points, are nearing that. If you can't understand how dangerous that is then there's not much more to say. Instead of flailing about trying to equate everything, it's time to get a grip and a sense of measure.
 
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shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
I read his post, saw your reply, and you didn't address anything yet wail on. I've yet to see you ever be measured when it comes to Islam/Muslims. I can understand that, since Baha'is have suffered a lot under them; but it's not excusable. You might be offended by this observation, but I'm just calling it how I see it. And it has nothing to do with baha'is in general or your family. I only made a comment about you. I have many baha'i friends myself.
I have addressed it but you choose to ignore it. So here it is again:
"Being a born to a Bahai family has nothing to do with the state of having prejudice toward Islam. This is again another statement that shows your own prejudice and ignorance.

I am however against any political ideology that kills and tortures others for expressing a different opinion be it a RADICAL ISLAM, RADICAL CHRISTIANITY or JUDAISM and ..."


The minute someone tries to portray this conflict as if the two parties are equally bad or when they consistently try to appeal on those grounds, as if there is a moral equivalency or as if we're disenfranchising Israeli supporters I think there is something more than a play at fairness. As the Iranians say, kase zire nim kase.
.
"two parties are equally bad" ??!!! "kase zire nim case." ??!!!

Again, it seems like your prejeduce is blinding you so much that you are not able to read correctly or understand others. I am not going to play the muslim card here like you did with the Bahai but when we say both side are responsible we are not trying to quantify the responsibility of events that expand over 70 years.

I am saying that there are TWO side to the conflict and both side have history of violence and killing and ... BOTH SIDES have extremists that are benefiting from bloodshed, both side have done terrible human right violations over the years and BOTH side have moderates who are calling for lasting peace.

If anything, my view is much more balance than yours who try to make it a EVIL vs GOOD, BLACK vs WHITE and ...

We both know there is 70+ years of history in this conflict and many faces have come and go, there was ups and downs in both sides and involvement of for gin nations and ... You want to make it an absolute and give a FREE PASS CARD to one side and I am saying both side need to look within and find the solution that is offered by the MODERATES on both side.

Your view of HTAE will ONLY bring more hate and more fanaticism to the region.


Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable.


Thank you for your honesty my friend :) ( although you questioned a known fact that Hamas targets civilians by a well placed "if").

Here you claim Hamas is targeting civilians and that is acceptable and understandable :)

I on the other hand, find the killing of the civilians in the hands of both side unacceptable and find nothing can justify it and hope the people who are benefiting from it be held responsible.

Unfortunately, as has been shown throughout human history; people often, through their own warped realities, can justify killing to the point of genocide.
I know that and I can see your post as an example in which you came out and justified killing civilians in the hands of Hamas.
I guess terrorist killing civilians in the bus stops, markets and ... is just a small scale genocide.
 
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TeamMeli

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2014
9,327
314
Las Vegas, NV
Hey guys, I normally stay away from the political debates mainly because I don't want to get in these kind of ugly arguments. It's not because I don't know what is going on in the world I listen to the world news and read the news on a daily basis. This is an ugly irooni mentality if you are against my beliefs you are against me and I will attack you. Just because someone has a different opinion than yours, doesn't make that person brainwashed or stupid. This is more of a commentary on how we treat one another with so much disrespect. You can make your argument with class without any red herrings. I did debate for a while if you attacked your opponent and not his or her ideas, they dropped you. You can debate whichever side you want I really don't care what your side is. I don't care if you are pro Israel or pro Palestine, red or blue, Marxist or fascist, just do it with class and dignity. There is no need in attacking other members because they have a different opinion.

THAT IS WHY I USUALLY STAY AWAY FROM HERE. I know I am not the oldest member here, in fact I registered this year but I bit my tongue for too long now and something had to be said.
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
I have addressed it but you choose to ignore it. So here it is again:
"Being a born to a Bahai family has nothing to do with the state of having prejudice toward Islam. This is again another statement that shows your own prejudice and ignorance.

I am however against any political ideology that kills and tortures others for expressing a different opinion be it a RADICAL ISLAM, RADICAL CHRISTIANITY or JUDAISM and ..."
I read it, I didn't ignore it. I just don't put much value on that statement since I do not regard you to have the requisite objectivity to believe in it.

"two parties are equally bad" ??!!! "kase zire nim case." ??!!!

Again, it seems like your prejeduce is blinding you so much that you are not able to read correctly or understand others. I am not going to play the muslim card here like you did with the Bahai but when we say both side are responsible we are not trying to quantify the responsibility of events that expand over 70 years.

I am saying that there are TWO side to the conflict and both side have history of violence and killing and ... BOTH SIDES have extremists that are benefiting from bloodshed, both side have done terrible human right violations over the years and BOTH side have moderates who are calling for lasting peace.

If anything, my view is much more balance than yours who try to make it a EVIL vs GOOD, BLACK vs WHITE and ...

We both know there is 70+ years of history in this conflict and many faces have come and go, there was ups and downs in both sides and involvement of for gin nations and ... You want to make it an absolute and give a FREE PASS CARD to one side and I am saying both side need to look within and find the solution that is offered by the MODERATES on both side.

Your view of HTAE will ONLY bring more hate and more fanaticism to the region.
You can't play the prejudiced card or the muslim card, because I'm not muslim. I'm not jewish, I'm not Israeli nor am I Palestinian. I'm not prejudging anyone.

You're too busy flailing to understand that I didn't make the issue black or white nor did I say that Hamas are with clean hands. I have simply intimated that the atrocities on one side are too real to pretend as if the real issue is a lack of coverage from both sides. No one gets a free pass, but one side is definitely far more culpable than the other. The Israelis are breaking international law with abandon, simply because they're a military power and they also have the US on their side.

Thank you for your honesty my friend :) ( although you questioned a known fact that Hamas targets civilians by a well placed "if").

Here you claim Hamas is targeting civilians and that is acceptable and understandable :)

I on the other hand, find the killing of the civilians in the hands of both side unacceptable and find nothing can justify it and hope the people who are benefiting from it be held responsible.
It's not a known fact or really, it depends what and when you're talking about. Other than that, again, you don't understand the statements being made or are too heated to grasp the nuance.

If one small people are being occupied, killed, and having their human rights violated; it's understandable that they will try to hit back at their oppressors. It's a regrettable fact, however; it's not because the Palestinians are the aggressors and Israel have simply replied in kind. What Israel has done is wrong, and it should expect some sort of retaliation. The idea that one side should sit still as it is being picked off one by one and blockaded so that they cannot exit is too insulting for any mature or serious person to countenance.

I know that and I can see your post as an example in which you came out and justified killing civilians in the hands of Hamas.
I didn't justify it, I said it was understandable. I don't like the word justify as justice is a fluid concept in which I don't think the civilian who is generally innocent of wrongdoing (apart from backing a psychotic state). There's a clear juxtaposition, however, to the occupiers who are the ones who not only are committing several breaches of human rights, but they also feign victimhood when the people they are oppressing are retaliating. The two are not the same. So pretending as if they are equally bad is either through ignorance or an agenda.

I guess terrorist killing civilians in the bus stops, markets and ... is just a small scale genocide.
No, it's not genocide at all. What the Israelis are calling for, explicitly, however, is. There's no room for interpretation on that.

The reason I can't take you seriously as an 'impartial' person is because the death toll speaks volumes. Several times more Palestinians are dying (civilians especially) and Israel are not even remotely threatened as a state by them. Yet you talk of Israel as if it is some victimised minority.

It's like someone stealing a TV, the owner punches the thief and then the thief gets his buddies and punches/stabs the other guy. And then we have someone like you in the middle trying to say "hey, let's be even here, he punched him too!"
 
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shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
I read it, I didn't ignore it. I just don't put much value on that statement since I do not regard you to have the requisite objectivity to believe in it.
"
LOL, How pretentious of you ;)

You can't play the prejudiced card or the muslim card, because I'm not muslim. I'm not jewish, I'm not Israeli nor am I Palestinian. I'm not prejudging anyone.
LOL again, weren't you born to a muslim parents ??!!! I am as much a Bahai as you are muslim my friend. The difference is that I do not let the action of few radical extremist makes me prejudice toward a whole religion while you certainly do ;)

The Israelis are breaking international law with abandon, simply because they're a military power and they also have the US on their side.
And so are Hamas but I do not see you complaining about it but somehow tried to justify it in your earlier post. It is there for everyone to read.


The reason I can't take you seriously as an 'impartial' person is because the death toll speaks volumes. Several times more Palestinians are dying (civilians especially) and Israel are not even remotely threatened as a state by them. Yet you talk of Israel as if it is some victimised minority.
Israel has a lower death toll not due to lack of trying by Hamas my friend. There are rockets that are raining over Israel in daily basis but their superior technology is saving their citizens lives.

Again, you can not pick a fight with a bigger person and then go to judge and say because you got your ass handed to you then the other guy is guilty.

I am repeating myself here but there is LONG history behind this conflicts. There has been crimes committed by both sides. There was a time that Egypt, Jordan and Syria and ... were all lining up their troop to have BREAKFAST IN TEL AVIV AND LUNCH IN TEHRAN.

You want to ignore the crimes committed by one side and just blame the other just like Hamas wants you to do and I want to hold both sides responsible. I believe there are extremist in both sides who are just getting more powerful by the conflict. I am on the side of the moderation, diplomacy and negotiations while you are on the side of FINGER POINTING and making this about EVIL vs GOOD , just based on the DEATH TOLLS and ignoring the history and the facts.
 

shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
What does Hamas want?
You mean besides their human rights? Not much.
Statements like My dear friend Kaz is what proves my point about you that for you it is all BLACK and WHITE and EVIL vs GOOD and facts and history have no place in this discussion.

If this is how you feel and think about Hamas, I suggest that you speak to some Palestinians as I know many of the here who think Hamas is nothing but a puppet that is being controlled by foreign powers and their hostiles policies is not in the benefit of Palestinians.

It is interesting to note that Hamas was loosing their political power and support in Gaza after few years of Calm and peace just before these conflicts and surprise surprise, they have again are becoming more popular after the bloodsheds.

No wonder they have been so eager to break every single cease fires during the past few weeks.
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
LOL, How pretentious of you ;)
If I felt you were genuine about it, I'd believe you. But I've been privy to you talking about Islam/Muslims before and you definitely have a bias there. Your explanation of radicals is just an excuse for you. What more Hamas are not religious fanatics like the ISIS.

LOL again, weren't you born to a muslim parents ??!!! I am as much a Bahai as you are muslim my friend. The difference is that I do not let the action of few radical extremist makes me prejudice toward a whole religion while you certainly do ;)
Other than my dad, no one from my family is religious. I'm basically an atheist. Unless you're an atheist, or at least an agnostic, there's little common ground between us.

Also, you're just engaging in strawmen arguments. I've not talked about jews; I'm talking about the state of Israel.

And so are Hamas but I do not see you complaining about it but somehow tried to justify it in your earlier post. It is there for everyone to read.
List the laws both sides are breaking, thanks. Yes, my posts are there for everyone to read, I'm not worried.

Israel has a lower death toll not due to lack of trying by Hamas my friend. There are rockets that are raining over Israel in daily basis but their superior technology is saving their citizens lives.

Again, you can not pick a fight with a bigger person and then go to judge and say because you got your ass handed to you then the other guy is guilty.

I am repeating myself here but there is LONG history behind this conflicts. There has been crimes committed by both sides. There was a time that Egypt, Jordan and Syria and ... were all lining up their troop to have BREAKFAST IN TEL AVIV AND LUNCH IN TEHRAN.

You want to ignore the crimes committed by one side and just blame the other just like Hamas wants you to do and I want to hold both sides responsible. I believe there are extremist in both sides who are just getting more powerful by the conflict. I am on the side of the moderation, diplomacy and negotiations while you are on the side of FINGER POINTING and making this about EVIL vs GOOD , just based on the DEATH TOLLS and ignoring the history and the facts.
The fact that you think it is Palestine 'picking a fight' with Israel shows you don't know what you're talking about. The Palestinians are being occupied. You keep repeating yourself because you think by some vague argument of "we've all done wrong" you can pretend to play the middle ground.

You have not addressed any of the specific points of law brought up or the argument about retaliation. It tells me enough that your participation in this thread is once again because there are muslims to vilify. You don't actually know what you're talking about.

It's also ironic you talk about religious fanatics, yet are oblivious to the fact that this whole conflict has begun because one group of religious people think they have a right to the land because god told them they do.
 
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shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
^^^^ Kaz Aziz,

I think at this point we are just wasting time. Your statement about Hamas killing civilians being justified and that they are only after human rights speak volumes about you and your ideology.

On the other hand, I think the future of this region is in the hands of moderates and there will be no peace till Hamas and guys like Netanyaho are in power ... I am hoping for the day that innocent people are not killed in the hands of the extremist for political gains and with Hamas and Netanyaho in power and guys like you from both side supporting them and justifying their action, that day will not come soon.
 
Aug 26, 2005
16,771
4
^^^^ Kaz Aziz,

I think at this point we are just wasting time. Your statement about Hamas killing civilians being justified and that they are only after human rights speak volumes about you and your ideology.

On the other hand, I think the future of this region is in the hands of moderates and there will be no peace till Hamas and guys like Netanyaho are in power ... I am hoping for the day that innocent people are not killed in the hands of the extremist for political gains and with Hamas and Netanyaho in power and guys like you from both side supporting them and justifying their action, that day will not come soon.
We are wasting our time because your argument is not genuine, you're interested in strawmen. You've now said several times I've 'justified' killing civilians by Palestinians. I made the distinction that I didn't justify them - that is actually a breach of international law - however I said it is understandable why the Palestinians would retaliate that way. They are being occupied, they are being blockaded in and there are restrictions on them bringing simple things like potato chips in. They have also been oppressed by another country that has not only targeted their civilians and their civilian property, they've done it on a much larger scale while the world watches. It's basically an open prison. This is apartheid.

So the idea/standard that the person being attacked/oppressed should just sit there and take it is nonsensical. It is only brought forth by people like the Israelis - who want to be immune to the same standards - and their apologists.

Right now, Hamas is not a fervent entity like it may have been in the past. They want peace, they want their own state and they want to be left alone. It is Netanyahu who has come out saying he doesn't support a two-state settlement.

In the broader argument, Israel will never be seen as a legitimate state by its neighbours. But it has progressed to the point where its neighbours have accepted its existence. Israel will only be in danger if it continues its current policy. The only way it will survive, in that region, is to stop stoking the fires. Not because it doesn't have the power to fight them all, but because it makes no sense if they actually want peace.

Statements like My dear friend Kaz is what proves my point about you that for you it is all BLACK and WHITE and EVIL vs GOOD and facts and history have no place in this discussion.

If this is how you feel and think about Hamas, I suggest that you speak to some Palestinians as I know many of the here who think Hamas is nothing but a puppet that is being controlled by foreign powers and their hostiles policies is not in the benefit of Palestinians.

It is interesting to note that Hamas was loosing their political power and support in Gaza after few years of Calm and peace just before these conflicts and surprise surprise, they have again are becoming more popular after the bloodsheds.

No wonder they have been so eager to break every single cease fires during the past few weeks.
I'm sorry, but you make no sense. You have a friend that said what? I have a jewish friend that says the Israelis zionist nazis. What of it? There's a way to have a discussion. Calling someone aziz, friend, or what have you, and then mischaracterising what they say is not it. And another is not to lie. You want to be even handed, yet you don't talk about the Israelis breaking ceasefires. It seems your evenhandedness only comes to the fore when it has to do with non-muslims.
 
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shahinc

Legionnaire
May 8, 2005
6,745
1
^^^
Cheers pal, I let you have the last word because at this point, you are just repeating yourself and going on a circle. I think your stand and my stand are quite clear here now you want to called it not genuine is fine by me :) ;)

Have a nice day.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
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Shahinc, lets clear few things up.

1) It is horrible what has been done to Bahai, and I like Kaz have Bahai friends. I too am athiest.
2) I think almost all people on this site except regime supporters support and want Israel to exist. It has already done more to help the medical and other fields than all muslim countries together. I have many Israeli friends, some very right and some left.
3) I have had friends that work for UN that are British, American, NZ, Australians, and Holland who have served in the occupied territories on the ground. And the picture they tell you of the sufferings and treatment of the Palastinians at the hands of the Israelis is horrendous. I dont think you have had any contract first hand, otherwise, as Bahai should understand the mistreatments of one group to another. I think problem here is most of the people dont follow the conflict and dont have any idea of what is actually happening on the ground to the Palastinians and then when Palastinians under occupation and mistreatments (many calling Gaza, live prison), explode in whichever way, they find it surprising and start attacking Palastinians. While Israelis right love it and can then go on hitting them hard and taking more lands.


If you so sure about Israeli's right meaning well, can you explain why they keep on building settlements and reducing Palastinains into small packets? Putting wall around them, etc. building highways through their lands that makes having to cross roadblocks to go between pocket to pocket. Meanwhile, the settlers go through the highways back to their subsidized house with all the water they want to use and fill up their swimming pool. The Palastinains farmers have to fight hard to get little water. The Palstinains have to wait sometimes for hours to cross the roadblocks because they have to wait for settlers to get back home traveling on the highways. The roadblocks divide pockets from hospitals, schools, etc.




Truth is if Palstinians dont do anything, Israel will keep status Quo and slowly build more settlements and take lands. When quiet, Israel never takes action or moves towards peace rather tries to invoke palastinains by announcing more settlements plans.
 
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TeamMeli

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2014
9,327
314
Las Vegas, NV
^^You are right on both accounts. I believe in a higher power so I am not an atheist but I don't say I am Christian, Muslim or Jewish or identify myself with a specific religion. Like you and Kaz I also have Baha'i friends. I too would like to see Israel exist for the points you mentioned but you are right about the settlements. If not pressured, Israel will continue to build settlements on what is recognized at least as Palestinian territory. Even if they are not a country yet they still have what is recognized as Palestinian territory and these settlements are the source of the main conflict.
I am not a supporter of Netanyahu because I think the guy is a nut but at the same time I am not a supporter of Hamas, and I think unless you are a regime supporter most people here don't like Hamas either. Now for the first time the United States is criticizing Israel and Netanyahu is not happy he fired back saying to the US government not to question him. Now even in the US, Israel is facing backlash these facts can't be ignored and yes numbers don't lie more civilians died on the Palestinian side than the Israeli side and Israel has all of the resources in the world at their disposal. Palestinians don't. At the end it's the people who suffer because the top officials at Hamas are getting their bread they are getting paid.
 

Flint

Legionnaire
Jan 28, 2006
7,016
0
United States
The Israeli's are illegally occupying Palestine.
By this statement alone you should permanently recuse yourself from this discussion. It is waste time for me or anybody else to debate the current conflict in Gaza, rockets, tunnels, blockade or anything else. You have outed yourself as someone who does not believe Israel should exist at all. Please open a new thread. In the mean time, do not muddy the waters in this thread to try to come across as an impartial observer.