Why the world community has been quite in regard to Mousavi and Karubi?

[General Parsaian]

Again this Mozdor wants to earn his pay check. Question is about Human Rights and not them being hero or not. By the way, what happened to your yesterday's hero AN, don't worry the same out come is awaiting for your Arbabhayat, soon will be Ali Geda turn and his Bayt. I have asked you this question once before, the reason that you ONLY post your comments is so Arbabhayat can see your work then you could get paid for it.

تو هم خیلی دلت خوش
هیومن رایتس چی چی
یارو تو خونش نشسته بغل دست زنش داره کباب سیخ میزنه
این صاف و ساده میگه هیومن رایتس کجاست
:4:
ولی خدایش تو یکی زدی توخال واقعا از هوش و ذکاوت بالایی برخوردار هستی
از کجا فهمیدی که من این برای این پست هایی که میکنم حقوق می گیرم ناقلا
نکنه تو هم همکار من هستی و بر اونطرفیها کار میکنی
:whack:

 

[General Parsaian]

However one thing that we all must do is to ignore these MoFo mozdoors posts so they wont be able to accomplish what they are told to do and what they get paid for ! simply dont respond to their posts or answer them back

چرا جواب پی ام ها رو نمیدی ؟
یادت رفت جریان سفر رو ؟ یا اینکه دروغ میگفتی ؟
جواب پی ام رو بده خودت رو به اون راه نزن جانم

 

[magic]

However one thing that we all must do is to ignore these MoFo mozdoors posts so they wont be able to accomplish what they are told to do and what they get paid for ! simply dont respond to their posts or answer them back

Great point.

 

[magic]

However one thing that we all must do is to ignore these MoFo mozdoors posts so they wont be able to accomplish what they are told to do and what they get paid for ! simply dont respond to their posts or answer them back

They are being paid to muddy the water. Also this Mozdoor didn't answer my question, why he ONLY post his comments in Farsi. Of course, the reason is for his Arababhayash see his works.

 

[masoudA]

Karubi and Moussavi are just two other akhoonds like the rest of the idiots......
Why is the world silence about some of our top minds in jail, beacuse they dared to criticize the leader in public?!! Why isn't anyone talking about Vahid - why don't most Iranian know or remember him? Why? Yet we remain concerned over two bozos who never had any plans other than to regain some lost power.....

 

[magic]

Karubi and Moussavi are just two other akhoonds like the rest of the idiots......
Why is the world silence about some of our top minds in jail, beacuse they dared to criticize the leader in public?!! Why isn't anyone talking about Vahid - why don't most Iranian know or remember him? Why? Yet we remain concerned over two bozos who never had any plans other than to regain some lost power.....

Nobody is disputing their past resume, it is a known quantity. But the fact is that they were catalyst ( I am not saying that they were the sole reason) for millions come together 4 years ago. Also remember that enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[Flint]

Also remember that enemy of my enemy is my friend.

There is just one problem. He is NOT the enemy of your enemy. The real enemies tend to die prematurely. How many times do we have to fall for this? Remember Hossein Khomeini? Where is he now?

 

[deerouz]

And if you think Iranian youth are bi-gheyrat, just remember how we were all feeling (yeah, I know, we're no spring chickens any more) watching the events from far away and how some of us wanted to even go back and join the revolution how everyone was chipping in and doing whatever they could, whether it was DNS attacks or just spreading the news. Don't think that those feelings and that longing for something better had died in any of us. And even if it has died in us far away, it has only become stronger in people who have to deal with it daily. When the spark starts, you'll see how gheyrati all of us will be again!

BH jan, DNS attacks and facebook postings from Europe and North America has little cost and practically no danger. Showing up for street fighting was an entirely different matter. BT is absolutely right: while some indecision and lack of confidence existed on the part of the opposition leaders, the main reason for the failure of the uprising was IRI's absolute resolution for taking any measures to survive, quick mass arrests and brutal crack down. The number of people who actively participated in the street fightings quickly shrunk as soon as the regime started beating down and arresting anyone who was showing a V sign or wearing a green armband. There were occasional sparks like the Ashura day but the regime managed to push back.

Let's admit that the Iranian population is facing a regime that will not be brought down by the methods of 1979 revolution. If Shah had this much brutality, he would not have been overthrown.

 

[Bi-honar]

^^^ I don't disagree with any of that Deerouz jaan, even with Soroosh's assessment that somebody else could have and should have filled the leadership vacuum. I think the only point that may separate us is the assessment of when the revolution failed. For me, it was in in late June / early July 2009 when Mousavi showed up to one of the biggest rallies for a few minutes, went on top of his car and told people for the 2nd time in as many weeks to go home and shout AA from their rooftops, while he resolved the issue peacefully There was a major and noticeable "oft" in the movement since that day. Whether people would have done that regardless, is a question of historical importance, the answer to which, granted, would be a matter of perspective.

The way I see it, Mousavi did have good intentions. He was very bothered by AN's administration for the past 4 years and he was genuinely interested in changing the system - from within. I don't even have a problem with the "from within" part. His major miscalculation was that he thought, given his past and service to the IR, Khamenei would take his side, particularly when he saw his popular support. That's why he got excited in those first couple of days and was happy to see people rally behind him and in his support. But the situation quickly got out of hand and went much further than he wanted it to. Khamenei ended up throwing his support behind AN and Mousavi was left in the position of either being a full force revolutionary or a mediator - this is apparent from Malkhmalbaf's interview on June 19th, where he said that Mousavi used to be Che, but now he's Ghandi!

Torn between these two drastically different roles, Mousavi made the decision early on that he was only willing to act as a mediator between the regime he had served and the people he had promised to bring change to [bad grammar ]. His role from this point in early July was to reverse the damage he had done to the system and try and bring the two warring factions to some sort of a negotiated solution. In other words, the man who allegedly proclaimed that he would not "give up", did quickly give in. Personally, I have no problem with this at all - this was a personal choice to him. But it not only left a huge an unexpected leadership vacuum in the movement, it also created huge cracks and divisions in it, along the peaceful / non-peaceful lines. These cracks were so significant that if you go back and read the discussions here on ISP during the June - October 2009 months, it's hard to miss them.

Was/Is he an evil guy? I don't believe so. Was he dumb to think that IR elections were a real democratic process and IR was prepared to respond to the aspirations of the people? Given his vast experience with the system, I would be inclined to say yes he was ignorant in that regard, romanticizing about a process that was practically impossible. Was he able to bring the changes he had promised the people during the campaign if they voted for him? I think the answer to that should be clear for everyone. So, my assessment of a couple of "old and stupid guys with zero capabilities and credibility" may be a little unkind in words and seemingly simplistic in nature, but I don't think it's far out in left field.

 

[General Parsaian]

Nobody is disputing their past resume, it is a known quantity. But the fact is that they were catalyst ( I am not saying that they were the sole reason) for millions come together 4 years ago. Also remember that enemy of my enemy is my friend.

جناب
موسوی و کروبی ملیونها نفر را اوردندتو خیابون؟
کی کجا؟
بجز ان چند هزار نفری که اولین روز امدند ما که حتی دو هزار نفر رو هم ندیدیم بیاره تو خیابون
خودش هم که رفت تو خونه و بست نشست
اگر موسوی می تونست ملیونها نفر رو بیاره تو خیابون که الان وضع تو اینطور نبود
چند صد نفر اومدن بعد از ان تظاهرات چند هزار نفری و اخرش حتی ان چند صد نفر رو هم ندیدیم
گفتیم چه شد
گفتند بسیجی های مزدور زنجیر دارند
پس فکر میکردند برای یک انقلاب کردن بهشان دسته گل می دهند
نه تنها ملیونها بلکه اگر موسوی می توانست تنها نیم ملیون در تهران و نیم ملیون در بقیه شهرها جمع کنه یعنی یک ملیون تظاهر کننده
و انها را تنها برای یکی دو ماه هر روز به خیابانها بکشه
رژیم تسلیم خواسته های موسوی می شد
نه اینکه با کفش بزنن تو سرش و بره تو خونه
بعد شما دیدید چون جنبش سبز ناتوان بود که عده زیادی را بیاورد به خیابانها می امد و در روزهایی که طرفداران رژیم تظاهرات می کردند
اعلام می کرد ما می خواهیم تظاهرات کنیم و بعد صد نفر یه جا جمع می شدند و شعار می دادند و می رفتند وسط مردم که این هم کم کم از بین رفت
یا دو تا فیلم تو تاریکی میگرفتند که چند نفر به نظر می رسید توی زیر زمین خانه ای الله اکبر می گویند و می زندند تو یوتیوب
چون دیدند نمی تواند این چند صد نفر رو هم دیگه بیاورند
مجبور شدند که بگویند منتظر اعلامیه موسوی باشید
که ما تاحالا منتظر اعلامیه بعدی موسوی هستیم
تا ببینیم چه باید کرد
راستی اعلامیه بعدی چه وقت اعلام می شود
خسته شدیم بابا
ملیونها نفر منتظر اعلامیه یار امام هستند

 

[General Parsaian]

Come on bro, that was two years after the events we're talking about!!! Of course, no one's going to give a shit about these guys, after they repeatedly didn't deliver what they said they would and repeatedly said they're there to save the regime and VF. Don't tell me you're disappointed that people didn't actually go out and get shot for these two clowns! Would you have?!

And if you think Iranian youth are bi-gheyrat, just remember how we were all feeling (yeah, I know, we're no spring chickens any more) watching the events from far away and how some of us wanted to even go back and join the revolution how everyone was chipping in and doing whatever they could, whether it was DNS attacks or just spreading the news. Don't think that those feelings and that longing for something better had died in any of us. And even if it has died in us far away, it has only become stronger in people who have to deal with it daily. When the spark starts, you'll see how gheyrati all of us will be again!
:chat:

And yes, Sepah is strong and ruthless, but everything has a price and at some point people will be willing to pay that price because they have little to lose. Revolutions in a country of 70 million isn't going to happen with a few hundred lives, but it would have been over before the loss of life got to a few thousand - just like in Egypt and in Iran in 1979. There's absolutely no way Iran would have or will become Syria. Both in Syria and Libya the people in the capitals were/are behind the regime and supporting it because they stood to lose much from the uprising. that's not the case in countries like Iran, Egypt, Tunisia, or Eastern Bloc countries. In these countries the regime would first lose the support of the capital and your forces can not continue to fight street battles with you own people in an economically crippled capital.

بله جناب
من یادم می اید چه تظاهرات پرشکوهی تو همین ای اس پی راه انداخته بودید که رژیم را در یک قدمی پرتگاه قرار داده بود
اگر دو سه نفر بن نشده بودند
کار رژیم تمام بود

بله جانم

 

[Motori]

Human Rights group just don’t show up and condemn imprisonment, although we might not like it but IRR has multiple compelling reasons to incarcerate them, they can not object to that. They always condemn the condition of imprisonment, torture, inhumane living environment, lack of medical care, food condition, etc. Also they act based on information they try to gather from different and available sources. They don’t act on unsubstantiated reports. They probably know very well in what condition these 2 families are being held at.

HRG have noticed that 100s of protesters has got killed and/or executed, 1000s got life or long prison terms just for showing up in the streets but these 2 who supposedly are the leaders of the movement (Fetneh) are sitting in their North Tehran villas/condos (which they have confiscated from people on early days of post revolution), unlike poor souls in Evin and other regime dungeons their immediate family members can visit them at will and medical assistance is always a phone call away (both MHM and Zahra have been transferred to hospital for medical treatment at least once each AFAIK). I saw a picture of MHM the other day showing he is back in his private studio busy painting again. He is an artist, don’t you know? (geryeh yeh hozzAr)

The only torture they have to endure is that they are deprived from their royal rights of conducting interview with foreign journalists.


International Human Rights Groups are not stupid.

 

[Zob Ahan]

Human Rights group just don’t show up and condemn imprisonment, although we might not like it but IRR has multiple compelling reasons to incarcerate them, they can not object to that. They always condemn the condition of imprisonment, torture, inhumane living environment, lack of medical care, food condition, etc. Also they act based on information they try to gather from different and available sources. They don’t act on unsubstantiated reports. They probably know very well in what condition these 2 families are being held at.

HRG have noticed that 100s of protesters has got killed and/or executed, 1000s got life or long prison terms just for showing up in the streets but these 2 who supposedly are the leaders of the movement (Fetneh) are sitting in their North Tehran villas/condos (which they have confiscated from people on early days of post revolution), unlike poor souls in Evin and other regime dungeons their immediate family members can visit them at will and medical assistance is always a phone call away (both MHM and Zahra have been transferred to hospital for medical treatment at least once each AFAIK). I saw a picture of MHM the other day showing he is back in his private studio busy painting again. He is an artist, don’t you know? (geryeh yeh hozzAr)
The only torture they have to endure is that they are deprived from their royal rights of conducting interview with foreign journalists.


International Human Rights Groups are not stupid.

That was an old video that just came out.

 

[Bi-honar]

I think Obama saw your post Magic!!!

EU and US urge Iran to free Mousavi: http://euobserver.com/foreign/119081

 

[feyenoord]

Feyenoord jaan, even if that sentence and statement was genuine (which I'm still not convinced), his beef was only with AN, not with VF. He's just not the revolutionary or leader many people have and continue to make him. He was always pro IR, pro VF, pro Emam and committed to the revolution (the 1st one ).

I think this is a case of us having seen what we wanted to see, rather than seeing things for what they were. Please watch this video (his first televised interview after the elections) and tell me if you still have the same impression of him afterward. This is 4 months after the elections and while the struggle was still going on pretty hard:

[video=youtube_share;miU0q1qLQVw]http://youtu.be/miU0q1qLQVw[/video]

I sincerely believe in his goal. You got to realize this is IR we are talking about. He has referred to VF and the other non-sense many times before. But that is just a good strategy in my opinion. Politicians should have strategy and take the least dangerous and costly path IMO. They should not play pure. This is an issue for us Iranian. We still believe that politics is about being pure and having akhlagh in it.

How dumb would it have been if he would have condemned the mass-murders of Khomeini for example. He has the upper-hand in that system by having worked under Khomeini. In fact, I believe that is the reason why they could not prosecute him. Prosecuting him, means disagreeing with Khomeini which is a huge taboo for many pasdars and other people in the system. Everything has its time.

Btw, If he is freed, and is allowed to run for another election and international observers would be there, I personally would go and for him.

 

[feyenoord]

[video=youtube;YpusmcpBDSA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpusmcpBDSA[/video]

 

[Bi-honar]

^^^ Great clip Feyenoord jaan. Still watching...

This article ZA posted in another thread is a great read. Highly recommended: http://forums.iransportspress.com/s...n-in-news-February-2013&p=1005193#post1005193

 

[Motori]

That was an old video that just came out.

z,
I didn't pay attention to the date, but still! He is sitting at home and needs to pass time. Reading books, painting. doing push ups and if occasion arises hump Rahavard once in while.

 

[Bi-honar]

The first guy's talking a lot of nonsense... He's talking about political culture, but completely leaves "the people" out of it, which completely contradicts his entire argument. I'm glad the majority of the panel disagree with him. Also glad to see the very apparent difference between the approaches of the old and new generation - the former being very abstract and circular, the latter being very logical and direct.

P.S. Sorry, but this Amir Ahmadi guy is a complete moron!!! He accuses everyone including the people of not having the "farhang of sazesh" while he works with the IR and doesn't agree with anything anyone says on the panel!!! He's the perfect example of what's wrong with Iranian politics actually - what's good for the goose is not good for gander. If he's talking about sazesh, he should at least listen to what people say.

 

[feyenoord]

The first guy's talking a lot of nonsense... He's talking about political culture, but completely leaves "the people" out of it, which completely contradicts his entire argument. I'm glad the majority of the panel disagree with him. Also glad to see the very apparent difference between the approaches of the old and new generation - the former being very abstract and circular, the latter being very logical and direct.

P.S. Sorry, but this Amir Ahmadi guy is a complete moron!!! He accuses everyone including the people of not having the "farhang of sazesh" while he works with the IR and doesn't agree with anything anyone says on the panel!!! He's the perfect example of what's wrong with Iranian politics actually - what's good for the goose is not good for gander. If he's talking about sazesh, he should at least listen to what people say.

Actually, I find him being right on spot with most of the things he says. Also regarding your last sentence, he makes it clear: he says that sazesh does not mean Taslim. He says that in order to do sazesh tha means the other side should be ready to. when it comes to your first point that he leaves people out: well, moving towards democracy by compromise is the key. He makes that clear. if we compromise in the path to democracy, why not? In democracy I think it is already hard to consider "people" as a whole anyway. That is one the things wrong in our political culture. We always says: mardome ma ino mikhan, ya oono mikhan. What do really people want anyway? Instead of saying these, there should be culture wherein all people can participate and say what they want and vote for people who represent them. I am not allowed to say that our people want this and that. That is the point of sazesh. Putting grounds for a culture in which differences of people are represented: pluralist democracy.
IMO, the guy with the mustache is the symbol of an Iranian person, who does not understand anything about modern day political culture and talks like populist. That Khanbaba Tehrani is also right on spot on many of his points. The other guy did not says anything special.

In the end, we should realize that "sazesh" has been a factor in bringing about many democracies in the past thirty years. We Iranian should stop being armangeraa and idealistic when it comes to politics.

I am glad you liked the clip though.:smile: