Why the world community has been quite in regard to Mousavi and Karubi?

[Zob Ahan]

z,
I didn't pay attention to the date, but still! He is sitting at home and needs to pass time. Reading books, painting. doing push ups and if occasion arises hump Rahavard once in while.

Motori jan good to have you back.
Whoever thinks that MHM is kicking back in a jacuzzi does not fathom the level of IR's brutality. We are talking about a regime that killed so many of their own:
A. Khomeini, Taleghani, Lahooti..................
They arrested MHM's son in law and tortured him so much that he disowned the family. Look what they did to Shirin Ebadi. They made him come on TV and say that Ebadi is paid by Israel.
The only reason they don't bring MHM on TV to "confess" is they want to keep him in "ab namak" for the "rooze mabada" if their nezam is in grave danger. He will be the IR's Bakhtiar.
I am no MHM supporter and think someone should come to power with no connection to the upper echelons of the IR otherwise they will not be trusted but I respect MHM and especially Karoubi for not folding.

 

[Bi-honar]

Actually, I find him being right on spot with most of the things he says. Also regarding your last sentence, he makes it clear: he says that sazesh does not mean Taslim. He says that in order to do sazesh tha means the other side should be ready to. when it comes to your first point that he leaves people out: well, moving towards democracy by compromise is the key.

No, I understood what he was saying bro and I am totally good with the argument until that point - he's really just stating the obvious. The problem that everyone was trying to bring to his attention and where he got all defensive (because of his ties with the regime) is what if the other side is NOT ready for sazesh? What if the other side is not ready for compromise? This is the reality of the current situation in Iran and the rest of the panel is obviously trying to understand his position. It's one thing to state the obvious, but to make it an intelligent argument, one has to respond to specifics, which he repeatedly refuses to do and keeps blaming that on the "political culture". It's a circular contradictory statement. In this case, obviously the "political culture" of sazesh exists in one side, but the other side refuses to acknowledge it. This is not a question of lack of political culture in the entire society as he suggests but in a specific and limited segment of society. He goes on to blame this lack of willingness on the whole society!

I totally agree with what you said about democracy. I think not making the opposite opinion one's enemy was the key phrase as related to Iran and well covered by the panel (i.e. the position and opposition). The guy with the mustache is your typical activist - frustrated with the lack of any overtures from the one side. I totally understand where he's coming from. He was not in disagreement with the obvious part of the argument. He was in disagreement with and frustrated with blaming this on the people, rather than those in power. Which brings me to the last guy, which like you said didn't say much that was special, except his scale analogy that sazaesh is like a scale and for any succeesful negotiation, the two sides must view each other as equals. Unfortunately, that's what's lacking in an autocratic regime and that's our main roadblock, because the regime does not view the people as its equals - they're the shepherd and the people are the sheep. You can't blame this on people's culture IMHO - this is what led to Shah's downfall, this is what led to the 2009 uprising and this is what will eventually lead to the regime's downfall.

 

[Bi-honar]

The only reason they don't bring MHM on TV to "confess" is they want to keep him in "ab namak" for the "rooze mabada" if their nezam is in grave danger. He will be the IR's Bakhtiar.

:dametjoosh:

 

[Zob Ahan]

Actually, I find him being right on spot with most of the things he says. Also regarding your last sentence, he makes it clear: he says that sazesh does not mean Taslim. He says that in order to do sazesh tha means the other side should be ready to. when it comes to your first point that he leaves people out: well, moving towards democracy by compromise is the key. He makes that clear. if we compromise in the path to democracy, why not? In democracy I think it is already hard to consider "people" as a whole anyway. That is one the things wrong in our political culture. We always says: mardome ma ino mikhan, ya oono mikhan. What do really people want anyway? Instead of saying these, there should be culture wherein all people can participate and say what they want and vote for people who represent them. I am not allowed to say that our people want this and that. That is the point of sazesh. Putting grounds for a culture in which differences of people are represented: pluralist democracy.
IMO, the guy with the mustache is the symbol of an Iranian person, who does not understand anything about modern day political culture and talks like populist. That Khanbaba Tehrani is also right on spot on many of his points. The other guy did not says anything special.

In the end, we should realize that "sazesh" has been a factor in bringing about many democracies in the past thirty years. We Iranian should stop being armangeraa and idealistic when it comes to politics.

I am glad you liked the clip though.:smile:

I think this panel was not even. On one hand we had AmirAhmadi that took up 70% of the time and used this panel as a stage to promote his candidacy and on the other hand we had the guy with the stach that couldn't articulate his point. All he needed to say is "what has Khamenei said or done in the last few years that even suggests any hint of "saazesh"?. that would have shut Ahmadi's mouth. KH is not ready or able or willing to give up a centimeter of power.
Khanbaba was the most reasonable and made the most sense IMHO.

 

[Bi-honar]

^^^ Thanks for mentioning that Siavash jaan. I had no idea this guy was a candidate for the upcoming elections. As you know I'm really bad with remembering names and as usual, I'm really confused now! The guy's wearing a tie and isn't this a BBC program?! The article you posted in the other thread said they've made ties completely illegal in Iran and ins't anybody who co-operates with BBC part of fetneh?!

Yeah the stach guy definitely had articulation problems and Khanbaba (the other older gentlemen) definitely made the most sense. What I really struggle to understand with this Amir Abadi guy's argument is what more does he expect the people to do to show a culture of saazesh? Poor things have endured years of war, economic hardship and political oppression under the IR and they still showed up in droves to vote during the last elections. Then they got screwed over again and still made their demands known through what I'm sure most of us agree was mainly peaceful means. What more does he want from people in terms of political culture and saazesh? And at what point would he agree that the problem with autocratic regimes like IR is the small segment of the society that want control through any means, rather than the whole of society?

 

[Zob Ahan]

^^^ Thanks for mentioning that Siavash jaan. I had no idea this guy was a candidate for the upcoming elections. As you know I'm really bad with remembering names and as usual, I'm really confused now! The guy's wearing a tie and isn't this a BBC program?! The article you posted in the other thread said they've made ties completely illegal in Iran and ins't anybody who co-operates with BBC part of fetneh?!

Yeah the stach guy definitely had articulation problems and Khanbaba (the other older gentlemen) definitely made the most sense. What I really struggle to understand with this Amir Abadi guy's argument is what more does he expect the people to do to show a culture of saazesh? Poor things have endured years of war, economic hardship and political oppression under the IR and they still showed up in droves to vote during the last elections. Then they got screwed over again and still made their demands known through what I'm sure most of us agree was mainly peaceful means. What more does he want from people in terms of political culture and saazesh? And at what point would he agree that the problem with autocratic regimes like IR is the small segment of the society that want control through any means, rather than the whole of society?

AA knows his candidacy will be rejected by the khobregan but likes to have his name out there so its OK if he wears a tie or is a regular on BBC. I was surprised the 3 other guys went easy on him.

 

[magic]

i think obama saw your post magic!!!

eu and us urge iran to free mousavi: http://euobserver.com/foreign/119081

lol.

 

[feyenoord]

LOL one thing for sure. Amirahmadi is really in a fantasy-land if he thinks he can run for elections in Iran. I remember few years back, when he asked to become a candidate, one of the people who is in shoraye negahban said something like this: not only we not letting him run, but we have also reserved a place for him in Evin.

 

[feyenoord]

I think this panel was not even. On one hand we had AmirAhmadi that took up 70% of the time and used this panel as a stage to promote his candidacy and on the other hand we had the guy with the stach that couldn't articulate his point. All he needed to say is "what has Khamenei said or done in the last few years that even suggests any hint of "saazesh"?. that would have shut Ahmadi's mouth. KH is not ready or able or willing to give up a centimeter of power.
Khanbaba was the most reasonable and made the most sense IMHO.

I dont disagree with you about Khamenei. I also do not believe that the whole section of our society lacks political culture of Sazesh. For example having turned up for the elections during Khatami's candidacy and Mousavi's one, shows already that there is culture of sazesh there (of course, if we believe that those people were not driven by javgiri).

But there is still a big issue for many Iranians that they tend to be armangera and idealist when it comes to politics.

 

[Bi-honar]

I was surprised the 3 other guys went easy on him.

I attribute it to "sazesh"!
That was the funnies (and most ironic) part of his argument that he was blaming everyone else and the whole society for not having a culture of sazesh while everyone in the panel was being very nice and mellow with him and he was the one being combative! The other ironically funny thing of course was that he kept dissing intellectuals that go into politics (i.e. people like himself) and saying that we don't produce enough intellectual politicians!

But there is still a big issue for many Iranians that they tend to be armangera and idealist when it comes to politics.

I think people in all societies do to some extent Feyenoord jaan. TBH with you, I think we have actually become very realistic in our demands compared to other people in the world. Take yourself for example, despite everything that has happened, you're still willing to go and vote for Mousavi if you were given the chance for a fair vote. And you're definitely not alone - I'm sure most of us would vote for someone under those same conditions and if it was a choice between Mousavi and AN, most people would pick Mousavi (like they did last time). It's not an ideal situation by any means and the condition of a fair vote is really the most basic thing we can ask from our politicians. What more do these guys want before blaming us for everything?!

 

[Bi-honar]

Here's that video of Mousavi I think you guys were talking about. According to Kaleme it was filmed before he was permanently put under house arrest and all the paintings in this video have been confiscated. The video was posted on Youtube only a few days ago. He left much to be desired as a leader of a revolutionary/evolutionary movement, but I found his artistic work quite intriguing. Also, I don't know if it's just my perception (and I had noticed the same thing in that previous clip I posted), but he seems a little khomar. If that is the case, I don't think he'll ever be making a comeback of any kind...

[video=youtube_share;t2LOdAeKVcI]http://youtu.be/t2LOdAeKVcI[/video]