Man, I brought up that example to show how his lines of thoughts were towards his family. He thought the same about the nation and himself as a Qayyem and Father. He never wanted the nation to stand on their own as he never let his daughters to do so. You are talking about grown up girls here not babies. Freeing women should start from your own family. But unfortunately he was forcing women without giving her a chance of her own. That is exactly the same what IRI does. In fact, in a way, under IRI women are freeing themselves out; many traditional families are happy for their girls to go to the universities and once they are educated they open their eyes enough that very soon we will have a REAL KASHFE HEJAB where women CHOOSE what they want to wear or not. IRI might have done it under the most outdated intentions but its antiques are working against him. Whereas REZA shah by forcing women to BIHIJABI delayed the process for over a century. That simply backfired and many traditional families did not let their girls to go to school.
Unfortunately, one of the reasons we have not been able to move forward has been the thing we like about him most, his thinking of everyone else and the nation as minors, never even trying to respect or understand them. We value nation as nothing. That is why we are always after a Saviour, who can be easily killed or bought. But a great strong nation of 70 million can not be killed or bought. In the example of Reza Shah, even IF we accept he was the Saviour, within 24 hours kwomb he is gone and the country becomes as chaotic as it was previous his time under foreign occupation.
Credit is due where it belongs and that Reza Shah was a great soldier for British cause and for his choosing aids he murdered later like Teymour Tash and Davar to carry out what British had no way but to carry out then, i.e. schools and railway system etc.
However, Reza Shah was far from a visionary or a strategist. So he can not be counted a hero.
Anyhow, lets agree to disagree on this.
1875, good that you bring it up. In those years Brits had major difficulties in Southern Iran because of the same forces Reza Shah curbed later, i.e. Qashqai Khans and local forces such as Reisali Delvari. From then on British knew that a non-centralized Iran is against their interest. To control every part of the country had proven impossible. That is why they brought Reza Shah. Prior to that they tried 1919 for a centralized army under Qajars but Ahmad Shah was too stubborn to accept that. Again, his famous words then echoes in history. He preferred to go to Italy and sell ice cream than to be a puppet king signing 1919 or anything similar. He was young and naive but at least was not a traitor.
By the way, we are all aware that if Iran was under one whole centralized government when Mashrootiat was under threat of Mohamad Ali Shah Qajar, we would have never got rid of him. It is interesting that all those pro Reza Shah propaganda out there try to smear faces like Pesyan and Mirza Kouchak Khan without mentioning how communists sided Reza Shah in fighting them (e.g. Amoghli was a communist but betrayed Mirza Khouchak Khan and sided with Reza Shah). Pesyan was patriot and never sought any independence. Similarly with Khiabani in Tabriz. Brits did not like them. Qashqais in Shiraz were a thorn in British side. These were forces who could guarantee independence of Iran. Railways, schools etc. would have been built eventually if we had an independent Iran.
It is really sad to praise a man who killed even his own friends to hang on to power, discounted the whole nation to a bunch of minors all the way, killed many patriots such as Mirza, Pesyan and Khiabani. Why because the man built a few schools which was going to be built anyhow. Those days every country was building them. Iran sooner or later once the civil war was over would not have been the exception.
And as for the civil war and separation, the only way out is to respect ALL Iranians for they are not forcing Persian chauvinistic identity on all and disregarding ethnic rights and banning the language of majority of the most patriot Iranians of all, i.e. Azaris. A united strong Iran is impossible when you disrespect them majority of Iranians. It might work for a while but like the time of Sassanids, King Reza Pahlavi and Saddam, it takes as short as 24 hours for a foreign force to come and claim the whole country.
Dear referee,
It’s very obvious that you are being biased towards Reza Shah and down play all the great things he did. You keep referring to him as brought in by the English and removed by them when everything he did was for Iran and did it on his own. Indicating that he was a good soldier of the British is one sample of this method. You can have your views and that’s fine. On this matter I guess we will agree to disagree and unfortunately for me I do not have a lot of time on my hands to go over the same issues again.
PS: As a side note I would like to know your thoughts on the Qajars. Do you think Iran moved forward or backwards under them? What type of a situation was Iran in when Reza Shah came into power?
Sepas
It’s very obvious that you are being biased towards Reza Shah and down play all the great things he did. You keep referring to him as brought in by the English and removed by them when everything he did was for Iran and did it on his own. Indicating that he was a good soldier of the British is one sample of this method. You can have your views and that’s fine. On this matter I guess we will agree to disagree and unfortunately for me I do not have a lot of time on my hands to go over the same issues again.
PS: As a side note I would like to know your thoughts on the Qajars. Do you think Iran moved forward or backwards under them? What type of a situation was Iran in when Reza Shah came into power?
Sepas
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Dear Pooya,
It is the other way around and you are so obviously biased towards him.
You even advised me not to bring negatives of a man here so to keep this thread clean and only full of glorifying a puppet who even killed his own friends with notorious methods clean. You are downplaying his dictatorial methods and might even think they were good things. I copied and pasted from his own daughter's memoirs about how he behaved in his family business (yes girls for him were business not humans). But you called it fishing in muddy waters. You are asking ME about Qajars when I criticize Reza Shah as if Qajar incompetence can justify Reza Shah's orders to lethal injections against Reza Shah's personal enemies and rivals years after Qajars had gone to history books. If that is not bias, what is?
If you want to be as non baised as it could be, you need to bring scholarly views on him and do not be upset by bringing about negatives of a man who was brought to power by British, served their purpose and brought down by them when he was no needed. You can argue he was no puppet or anti foreign influence. Many say the same thing about Saddam. In a lot of ways, Saddam and Reza Shah were so similar, more so their being ousted and the way people under them cared little for their being ousted. In fact, Reza was ousted far easier. Because the army he built for British was totally loyal to British than to Reza Shah himself.
It is the other way around and you are so obviously biased towards him.
You even advised me not to bring negatives of a man here so to keep this thread clean and only full of glorifying a puppet who even killed his own friends with notorious methods clean. You are downplaying his dictatorial methods and might even think they were good things. I copied and pasted from his own daughter's memoirs about how he behaved in his family business (yes girls for him were business not humans). But you called it fishing in muddy waters. You are asking ME about Qajars when I criticize Reza Shah as if Qajar incompetence can justify Reza Shah's orders to lethal injections against Reza Shah's personal enemies and rivals years after Qajars had gone to history books. If that is not bias, what is?
If you want to be as non baised as it could be, you need to bring scholarly views on him and do not be upset by bringing about negatives of a man who was brought to power by British, served their purpose and brought down by them when he was no needed. You can argue he was no puppet or anti foreign influence. Many say the same thing about Saddam. In a lot of ways, Saddam and Reza Shah were so similar, more so their being ousted and the way people under them cared little for their being ousted. In fact, Reza was ousted far easier. Because the army he built for British was totally loyal to British than to Reza Shah himself.
Dear Referee,
You keep repeating the same thing over and over again that he was soldier of the English and did what they wanted him to do. I am not sure how its possible for you not to realize the tens of things he did for Iran and took Iran to the modern times from the devastating aftermath of the Qajars.
I will just list some of the things he did and I see it totally unfair and biased to just label one. I did explain the reason behind the marriage and how society worked. Specially when you are a daughter of a king and marriages are used as a political measure. One is judged on the overall accomplishemnts as noone is perfect.
1. Creating Safety In the country
2. Bank Sepah
3. Creation of the Army
4. Order for creation of birth certificates
5. New Judicial law and stopping usage of Islamic law
6. New Judicial system (Daad Gostari)
7. Repaying of foregin loans (brought on the nation by the Qajars)
8. Creation of the Train system
9. Creation of the Navy
10. Programs to send students to iternational countries
11. Rahni bank (for construction)
12. Free trade
13. Creation of Zob Ahan Company
14. CANCELLATION of contract from British Royal Bank to print Iranian currency
15. Creation of Tehran University
16. Creation of Melli Bank
17. Creation of Sanaati Bank
18. Farhangestan Zabane Parsi
19. Karkhaneye Ghand
20. Stopping akhoonds from practicing law
21. Radio
22. cancellation of the contract from the British for creation of a Telegraph company
23. Cretion of new text books for all level students
24. Creation of Roads
25. Womens institution and rights group
26. Shahbaz Airplane company
27. Womens art institute
28. National medicine institute
29. Creation of electricity companies
30. Phone system in Tehran
31. Karkhaneye Boloor Sazi (ceramic company)
32. Karkhaneye dokhaniate Tehran
33. Silooye Tehran
34. updating of the calander
35. Sabte Asnad va amlak
36. Creating states and state lines,
37. building of the first Iranian Dam
38. Creation of Daneshgahaye moghadamati
39. Creation of many highschools
40. New Hospitals
41. Mandatory Military Service
42. New Akaber classes for remote locations and villages
There is soo much proof of all the good he did that not even the akhoonds deny what he has done for Iran. Here is a man that spent a life time trying to make his country better and return it to the glory days. The english thought that Reza Shah can be used as a puppet after the Coup. but they found otherwise as this Great man did everything for Iran. Prior to the coup he was known as a strong anti british person with the cosak force that he use to lead. This is very similiar to the time when Shah tahmasb used Nader as head of the army and then Nader turned and took control from the incompetent Safavids. They both were extremly competant and true nationalist. Their power in leading people and visionary views is what set them as great leaders.
You keep repeating the same thing over and over again that he was soldier of the English and did what they wanted him to do. I am not sure how its possible for you not to realize the tens of things he did for Iran and took Iran to the modern times from the devastating aftermath of the Qajars.
I will just list some of the things he did and I see it totally unfair and biased to just label one. I did explain the reason behind the marriage and how society worked. Specially when you are a daughter of a king and marriages are used as a political measure. One is judged on the overall accomplishemnts as noone is perfect.
1. Creating Safety In the country
2. Bank Sepah
3. Creation of the Army
4. Order for creation of birth certificates
5. New Judicial law and stopping usage of Islamic law
6. New Judicial system (Daad Gostari)
7. Repaying of foregin loans (brought on the nation by the Qajars)
8. Creation of the Train system
9. Creation of the Navy
10. Programs to send students to iternational countries
11. Rahni bank (for construction)
12. Free trade
13. Creation of Zob Ahan Company
14. CANCELLATION of contract from British Royal Bank to print Iranian currency
15. Creation of Tehran University
16. Creation of Melli Bank
17. Creation of Sanaati Bank
18. Farhangestan Zabane Parsi
19. Karkhaneye Ghand
20. Stopping akhoonds from practicing law
21. Radio
22. cancellation of the contract from the British for creation of a Telegraph company
23. Cretion of new text books for all level students
24. Creation of Roads
25. Womens institution and rights group
26. Shahbaz Airplane company
27. Womens art institute
28. National medicine institute
29. Creation of electricity companies
30. Phone system in Tehran
31. Karkhaneye Boloor Sazi (ceramic company)
32. Karkhaneye dokhaniate Tehran
33. Silooye Tehran
34. updating of the calander
35. Sabte Asnad va amlak
36. Creating states and state lines,
37. building of the first Iranian Dam
38. Creation of Daneshgahaye moghadamati
39. Creation of many highschools
40. New Hospitals
41. Mandatory Military Service
42. New Akaber classes for remote locations and villages
There is soo much proof of all the good he did that not even the akhoonds deny what he has done for Iran. Here is a man that spent a life time trying to make his country better and return it to the glory days. The english thought that Reza Shah can be used as a puppet after the Coup. but they found otherwise as this Great man did everything for Iran. Prior to the coup he was known as a strong anti british person with the cosak force that he use to lead. This is very similiar to the time when Shah tahmasb used Nader as head of the army and then Nader turned and took control from the incompetent Safavids. They both were extremly competant and true nationalist. Their power in leading people and visionary views is what set them as great leaders.
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I like it.
Dear Pooya,
Nader came to power by the power of people. Reza Shah was discovered by a British agent. There is a huge difference there. Also Nader made an empire of Iran comparable in size with that of Achamenid era whereas Reza Shah gave the whole DODASTi to the British and when Brits asked him to go, he had no choice but to go as his own soldiers knew who the real boss was.
Also since when establishing "Karkhaneye Ghand" is a major achievement for a king??? The rest of the list are the same ones in almost every other country on the planet of earth during his time. Even African poor nations started to have radios (Afghanistan, Ethiopia and Saudi Arabia had radios 16, 10 and 9 years before Iran in 1925, 1931 and 1932 - ref Wikipedia here), banks etc. It is truly amazing that to make your list longer, you have considered forced military service as his achievement when those conscripted soldiers could not even last 24 hours to resist a foreign force.
Furthermore, even "IF" we accept the list great many achievements, you still can not count Reza Shah as a hero. A dictator is a dictator. A corrupt figure is a corrupt figure. A nation under a dictator has no dignity left. The end result is what exactly we saw. A country that could not resist foreign forced even for one day. What use of the strong army he made? Only to curb locals and disarm Qashqais, the most loyal patriotic tribes of Iran???
Nader came to power by the power of people. Reza Shah was discovered by a British agent. There is a huge difference there. Also Nader made an empire of Iran comparable in size with that of Achamenid era whereas Reza Shah gave the whole DODASTi to the British and when Brits asked him to go, he had no choice but to go as his own soldiers knew who the real boss was.
Also since when establishing "Karkhaneye Ghand" is a major achievement for a king??? The rest of the list are the same ones in almost every other country on the planet of earth during his time. Even African poor nations started to have radios (Afghanistan, Ethiopia and Saudi Arabia had radios 16, 10 and 9 years before Iran in 1925, 1931 and 1932 - ref Wikipedia here), banks etc. It is truly amazing that to make your list longer, you have considered forced military service as his achievement when those conscripted soldiers could not even last 24 hours to resist a foreign force.
Furthermore, even "IF" we accept the list great many achievements, you still can not count Reza Shah as a hero. A dictator is a dictator. A corrupt figure is a corrupt figure. A nation under a dictator has no dignity left. The end result is what exactly we saw. A country that could not resist foreign forced even for one day. What use of the strong army he made? Only to curb locals and disarm Qashqais, the most loyal patriotic tribes of Iran???
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اق جنرال انكليس راه اهن را زمان جنك به شكل امروزي در اورد اون زمان كه ساخت راه اهن شروع شد كه اينطور نبود به همين خاطر اسم ايران را كذاشتن بل بيروزي . خنده داره بل بيروزي و بعضي ها به اين لقب افتخار ميكنن نمي دونن كه معني اين يعني تصرف كردن كشور ما و هر كاري خواستن انجام دادان . اكر رضا شاه واقعا قلبش براي ايران ميتبيد و ادم شجاعي بود مثل يك مرد مي ايستاد و دويست نفر جمع ميكرد و ميجنكيد و مثل مرد كشته ميشد
اين با يك تشر نشست تو كشتي ده برو. زورش فقط به زن هاي با حجاب و كاركرهاي بدبخت و نان فروش وسبزي فروش امام مسجدسر كوجشون ميرسيد . احتياج به كتاب خوندن نداره تا ادم بز دل و شجاع رو بشناسي . زمان جنك سرباز ها و بسيجيهايي بودن كه خوندن ونوشتن بلد نبودن ولي مثل شير از ايران دفاع ميكردن و خيلي ها بودن كه يك كتاب خونه كتاب خونده بودن فرار كردن و رفتن . مثل من و شما مثل اكثريت كه اينجا هستن كه اكر جنك بشه ميرن توي مستراح عكس سربازهاي امريكايي رو اتش ميزنن البته خيلي از اونها هم كه ضد رجيم هستن عكس خامنه اي را در مقابل توي مستراح اتش ميزنن
Dear Referee,
Nader came into power because of his leadership skills and great competancy that he had. Reza Shah also had great leadership skills and was very competant. You have obviously made up your mind and see everything as black and white and just discredit accomplishments and are biased towards him for what ever reason. Iran is here today because of his efforts. You simply said he handed the country to the english and was a british agent. Obviously you have either biases or an agenda to downplay everything he did.
As indicated I do not have much time to keep contributing to this so I will leave at this.
Nader came into power because of his leadership skills and great competancy that he had. Reza Shah also had great leadership skills and was very competant. You have obviously made up your mind and see everything as black and white and just discredit accomplishments and are biased towards him for what ever reason. Iran is here today because of his efforts. You simply said he handed the country to the english and was a british agent. Obviously you have either biases or an agenda to downplay everything he did.
As indicated I do not have much time to keep contributing to this so I will leave at this.
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No Problems.
I know we all have our biases. But honestly, I actually made an effort to understand your point. However, in doing so and making more research I actually found further negative points about REZA Shah (you could see my change in tone from beginning of this thread) and some of the things (e.g. radio and his attitude to his family) surprised even my own earlier perceptions of him ( I never thought he would force a husband to his own family).
Anyhow, thanks for your time and discussing this as a true gentleman. I really admire your approach despite having such opposite views with your views.
I know we all have our biases. But honestly, I actually made an effort to understand your point. However, in doing so and making more research I actually found further negative points about REZA Shah (you could see my change in tone from beginning of this thread) and some of the things (e.g. radio and his attitude to his family) surprised even my own earlier perceptions of him ( I never thought he would force a husband to his own family).
Anyhow, thanks for your time and discussing this as a true gentleman. I really admire your approach despite having such opposite views with your views.