I completely agree with this. I heard from friends who went to yesterday's demonstrations that they thought it was the most violent they had seen. What was surprising was that they were also saying that they had a good time!!! I know it sounds wrong and bad to say so when many are beaten and many are arrested and god knows what will happen to them. But that's a very significant point. They know they are in this for the long haul, and they have opted to prepare themselves for the long haul. They have found little things to amuse themselves in this mess while there is really little to relish when you're beaten by the thugs and your lives and your friends' lives are on the line. That is what the regime must be afraid of; that this way of life becomes the norm. To quote Masih Alinejad: "30 sal ma az anha tarsidim, begzar hala anha az ma betarsand"
Khatami himself has publicly expressed his regret on not standing more firm when he had the chance.
Khatami did have positive impact but he also had major negative impact. It is not wise to forget either. It was under Khatami's nose that Sepah grew from a mini monster to a full fledged monster that now is controlling everything in Iran.
Khatami is a midged compared to say Bazargan intellectually and in terms of progressiveness but he shares one thing in common with him and with almost all "intellectuals and progressives:" they do not understand the role of government and governing. When you come into office your first, middle, and last thought should be to gather arms: gun power. And in fact that is the only real function of a government. It is not to build bridges or have 5 year plans, or what not. It is to have arms to defend individual freedom. Both of them squandered their opportunity and it came back to haunt them.
Khatami did have positive impact but he also had major negative impact. It is not wise to forget either. It was under Khatami's nose that Sepah grew from a mini monster to a full fledged monster that now is controlling everything in Iran.
Khatami is a midged compared to say Bazargan intellectually and in terms of progressiveness but he shares one thing in common with him and with almost all "intellectuals and progressives:" they do not understand the role of government and governing. When you come into office your first, middle, and last thought should be to gather arms: gun power. And in fact that is the only real function of a government. It is not to build bridges or have 5 year plans, or what not. It is to have arms to defend individual freedom. Both of them squandered their opportunity and it came back to haunt them.
I have not heard him say that. Can you please show me where he said that he did not stand firm enough?
Even if he did say that, I'd still think that confrontation in his first term (18 tir) would have been a mistake. What he had started was very fragile at the time, and it was more important than student protests. Maybe he could have done a better job conveying that to people and bringing them along. I'm sure there are many things that he could have done better or many mistakes that he made. But hindsight is 20/20. On major issues I believe he acted correctly.
And I don't see this either. First, Khatami never had any control over how Sepah would evolve. Second, Sepah was no mini-monster before Khatami and didn't become what it is today during his time either. It did grow, but major expansion happened during AN's term.
Even if he did say that, I'd still think that confrontation in his first term (18 tir) would have been a mistake. What he had started was very fragile at the time, and it was more important than student protests. Maybe he could have done a better job conveying that to people and bringing them along. I'm sure there are many things that he could have done better or many mistakes that he made. But hindsight is 20/20. On major issues I believe he acted correctly.
And I don't see this either. First, Khatami never had any control over how Sepah would evolve. Second, Sepah was no mini-monster before Khatami and didn't become what it is today during his time either. It did grow, but major expansion happened during AN's term.
That is interesting. I actually talked to 3 friends who said the exact opposite. They said that they felt that it is the same old things since the election. People go in to street, get beaten and arrested.
They have been going to all demonstrations but said, many of their friends have given up since they do not want to risk their life and their family's life for something that is not changing and evolving.
I guess different people are reacting differently to the events.
They have been going to all demonstrations but said, many of their friends have given up since they do not want to risk their life and their family's life for something that is not changing and evolving.
I guess different people are reacting differently to the events.
I actually remember this Deerouz jaan and in fact I was a little disappointed to read your post at the time. But I completely agree with you on this post, we (the expats) don't have the right to pick the pace for them at all or ask them to go out fighting. I just want to clarify again, that I'm not at all suggesting that they should do that, rather observing that they have been holding back because of the encouragement of Green leaders (or lack thereof as it turns out) to be more peaceful.
Khodam jaan, it's interesting that you bring up the issue of evolution versus revolution, as I have repeatedly used this analagy on this site in the past 3 years being a strong proponent of evolution. Using the same analogy though we can not lose track of the fact that evolution does not only occur at a slow and steady pace but often as a result of violent changes that force species to adapt to their new surroundings and conditions. Without these changes, the species do not have a need to evolve as they are already adapt to the environment. So, evolution does not necessarily imply a non-violent, slow and steady change. Another important factor in this is that evolution of a specie or in this case the mental evolution of a people, is not independant of external variables. In this case, the Iranian nation simply does not have a decade or another 100 years to evolve to that level of maturity. Other factors, such as regional stability, international relations and economics have an undeniable impact on the speed at which this evolution needs to occur.
Bi-honar jan, the description you're offering varies based on time scales used. Iranian revolution, when looked at over a millenium can well be considered an evolutionary step. But if you are looking at the recent political history, it was just what it's called, a "revolution". Examples of evolutionary processes in recent history are the civil rights movement or collapse of the apartheid regime. Of course there were plenty of watershed moments in those but they were not revolutions.
Khodam jaan, I've seen these comparissons between the situation in Iran and the civil rights movement as well as Apartheid previously and frankly, I have never understood them. Perhaps you can explain them to meb eyond what's my understanding now.
As far as I'm concerned the civil rights movement succeeded two centuries after the battle betweem democracy (and personal freedoms) and theocracy had already been won. It was not a movement that achieved reesults over night and it took decades and plenty of violence and "revolutionaries" to finally achieve the end goal.
The same goes for Apartheid. I mean the struggle against Apartheid had it all, protests, strikes, imprisonments, massacres and plenty of violence. What Iranians say when drawing this comparisson with Apartheid sounds to me like, we don't want imprisonments, we don't want violence, we don't want strikes, we don't want massacres, you know just the way Apartheid was brought down and by the way Gholi joon, throw in a koubideh into the euqation too!
I just don't get it.
As far as I'm concerned the civil rights movement succeeded two centuries after the battle betweem democracy (and personal freedoms) and theocracy had already been won. It was not a movement that achieved reesults over night and it took decades and plenty of violence and "revolutionaries" to finally achieve the end goal.
The same goes for Apartheid. I mean the struggle against Apartheid had it all, protests, strikes, imprisonments, massacres and plenty of violence. What Iranians say when drawing this comparisson with Apartheid sounds to me like, we don't want imprisonments, we don't want violence, we don't want strikes, we don't want massacres, you know just the way Apartheid was brought down and by the way Gholi joon, throw in a koubideh into the euqation too!
I just don't get it.
Khodam jaan, I've seen these comparissons between the situation in Iran and the civil rights movement as well as Apartheid previously and frankly, I have never understood them. Perhaps you can explain them to meb eyond what's my understanding now.
As far as I'm concerned the civil rights movement succeeded two centuries after the battle betweem democracy (and personal freedoms) and theocracy had already been won. It was not a movement that achieved reesults over night and it took decades and plenty of violence and "revolutionaries" to finally achieve the end goal.
The same goes for Apartheid. I mean the struggle against Apartheid had it all, protests, strikes, imprisonments, massacres and plenty of violence. What Iranians say when drawing this comparisson with Apartheid sounds to me like, we don't want imprisonments, we don't want violence, we don't want strikes, we don't want massacres, you know just the way Apartheid was brought down and by the way Gholi joon, throw in a koubideh into the euqation too!
I just don't get it.
As far as I'm concerned the civil rights movement succeeded two centuries after the battle betweem democracy (and personal freedoms) and theocracy had already been won. It was not a movement that achieved reesults over night and it took decades and plenty of violence and "revolutionaries" to finally achieve the end goal.
The same goes for Apartheid. I mean the struggle against Apartheid had it all, protests, strikes, imprisonments, massacres and plenty of violence. What Iranians say when drawing this comparisson with Apartheid sounds to me like, we don't want imprisonments, we don't want violence, we don't want strikes, we don't want massacres, you know just the way Apartheid was brought down and by the way Gholi joon, throw in a koubideh into the euqation too!
I just don't get it.
Similarly, resisteance against apartheid had its ups and downs and violent moments. But after civil rights movement in the US, it became almost exclusively a non-violent movement. It was the non-violent branch that brought down apartheid. This is not disputed.
Similarities between Iran and those two movements abound, as do differences. I'm not suggesting we should follow their blue print word by word. But there is a lot to be learned from those movements that directly applies to the case of Iran.
Agreed Khodam jaan. IMHO two major issues that contributed to the fall of Apartheid toward the end were Western pressures and the border conflict during the Angolan civil war. What are your thoughts on this? And again, if we were to use the struggle against Apartheid as a blurprint, should we not promote sustained westen pressure and additional conflicts that test the regime's resources (contrary to the agenda being pushed by "Green" politicians in Iran)?
Exactly, the green movement and (Mousavi-karoubi) thing are only a stage in development. In my opinion, these two are only the messengers, the flag-wearers and I am very sure they are completely aware of that.
It is all like a rolling stone, it already starts rolling and you (Mousavi-Karoubi) better not staying in its way!
It is all like a rolling stone, it already starts rolling and you (Mousavi-Karoubi) better not staying in its way!
It has been indeed a cruel summer!
Hot summer streets and the pavements are burning
I sit around
Trying to smile, but the air is so heavy and dry
Strange voices are saying (ah, what did they say?)
Things I can't understand
It's too close for comfort, this heat has got
Right out of hand
It's a cruel, (cruel) cruel summer
Leaving me here on my own
It's a cruel, (it's a cruel) cruel summer
Now you're gone
You're not the only one
It's a cruel
The city is crowded, my friends are away and I'm on my own
It's too hot to handle, so I gotta get up and go, and go
It's a cruel, (cruel) cruel summer
Leaving me here on my own
It's a cruel, (it's a cruel) cruel summer
Now you're gone
You're not the only one
Hot summer streets and the pavements are burning
I sit around
Trying to smile, but the air is so heavy and dry
Strange voices are saying (ah, what did they say?)
Things I can't understand
It's too close for comfort, this heat has got
Right out of hand
It's a cruel, (cruel) cruel summer
Leaving me here on my own
It's a cruel, (it's a cruel) cruel summer
Now you're gone
You're not the only one
It's a cruel
The city is crowded, my friends are away and I'm on my own
It's too hot to handle, so I gotta get up and go, and go
It's a cruel, (cruel) cruel summer
Leaving me here on my own
It's a cruel, (it's a cruel) cruel summer
Now you're gone
You're not the only one
all this is just our group therapy. It's quiet frustrating to helplessly watch our hamvatans murdered, arrested, beaten up from outside. It's only normal to want to make a difference - we have and we will. As you know, Sardars are openly threatening the opposition outside Iran - that means we have been effective.
Do not underestimate the power of international pressure on IRI - and that pressure is peaking these days.
Do not underestimate the power of international pressure on IRI - and that pressure is peaking these days.