"The west has picked a fight with Iran that it cannot win"

naomid

Ball Boy
Dec 28, 2003
204
0
kavir
#1
The west has picked a fight with Iran that it cannot win[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Washington's kneejerk belligerence ignores Tehran's influence and the need for subtle engagement
[/FONT][FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Simon Jenkins
[/FONT][FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Friday January 20, 2006
[/FONT][FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Guardian
[/FONT][FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Never pick a fight you know you cannot win. Or so I was told. Pick an argument if you must, but not a fight. Nothing I have read or heard in recent weeks suggests that fighting Iran over its nuclear enrichment programme makes any sense at all. The very talk of it - macho phrases about "all options open" - suggests an international community so crazed with video game enforcement as to have lost the power of coherent thought.
Iran is a serious country, not another two-bit post-imperial rogue waiting to be slapped about the head by a white man. It is the fourth largest oil producer in the world. Its population is heading towards 80 million by 2010. Its capital, Tehran, is a mighty metropolis half as big again as London. Its culture is ancient and its political life is, to put it mildly, fluid.
All the following statements about Iran are true. There are powerful Iranians who want to build a nuclear bomb. There are powerful ones who do not. There are people in Iran who would like Israel to disappear. There are people who would not. There are people who would like Islamist rule. There are people who would not. There are people who long for some idiot western politician to declare war on them. There are people appalled at the prospect. The only question for western strategists is which of these people they want to help.
Of all the treaties passed in my lifetime the 1968 nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) always seemed the most implausible. It was an insiders' club that any outsider could defy with a modicum of guile. So it has proved. America, sitting armed to the teeth across Korea's demilitarised zone, has let North Korea become a nuclear power despite a 1994 promise that it would not. America supported Israel in going nuclear. Britain and America did not balk at India doing so, nor Pakistan when it not only built a bomb but deceitfully disseminated its technology in defiance of sanctions. Three flagrant dissenters from the NPT are thus regarded by America as friends.
I would sleep happier if there were no Iranian bomb but a swamp of hypocrisy separates me from overly protesting it. Iran is a proud country that sits between nuclear Pakistan and India to its east, a nuclear Russia to its north and a nuclear Israel to its west. Adjacent Afghanistan and Iraq are occupied at will by a nuclear America, which backed Saddam Hussein in his 1980 invasion of Iran. How can we say such a country has "no right" to nuclear defence?
None the less this month's reopening of the Natanz nuclear enrichment plant and two others, though purportedly for peaceful uses, was a clear act of defiance by Iran's new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Inspectors from the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) remain unsure whether it implies a secret weapons programme but the evidence for this is far stronger than, for instance, against Saddam Hussein. To have infuriated the IAEA's Mohamed ElBaradei takes some doing. As Saddam found, deviousness in nuclear matters is bound to arouse suspicion. Either way, the reopening yielded a strong diplomatic coalition of Europe, America, Russia and China in pleading with Ahmadinejad to desist.
On Monday, Washington's kneejerk belligerence put this coalition under immediate strain. In two weeks the IAEA must decide whether to report Iran to the UN security council for possible sanctions. There seems little point in doing this if China and Russia vetoes it or if there is no plan B for what to do if such pressure fails to halt enrichment, which seems certain. A clear sign of western floundering are speeches and editorials concluding that Iran "should not take international concern lightly", the west should "be on its guard" and everyone "should think carefully". It means nobody has a clue.
I cannot see how all this confrontation will stop Iran doing whatever it likes with its nuclear enrichment, which is reportedly years away from producing weapons-grade material. The bombing of carefully dispersed and buried sites might delay deployment. But given the inaccuracy of American bombers, the death and destruction caused to Iran's cities would be a gift to anti-western extremists and have every world terrorist reporting for duty.
Nor would the "coward's war" of economic sanctions be any more effective. Refusing to play against Iranian footballers (hated by the clerics), boycotting artists, ostracising academics, embargoing commerce, freezing foreign bank accounts - so-called smart sanctions - are as counterproductive as could be imagined. Such feelgood gestures drive the enemies of an embattled regime into silence, poverty or exile. As Timothy Garton Ash wrote in these pages after a recent visit, western aggression "would drain overnight its still large reservoir of anti-regime, mildly pro-western sentiment".
By all accounts Ahmadinejad is not secure. He is subject to the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. His foe, Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, retains some power. Tehran is not a Saddamist dictatorship or a Taliban autocracy. It is a shambolic oligarchy with bureaucrats and technocrats jostling for power with clerics. Despite a quarter century of effort, the latter have not created a truly fundamentalist islamic state. Iran is a classic candidate for the politics of subtle engagement.
This means strengthening every argument in the hands of those Iranians who do not want nuclear weapons or Israel eliminated, who crave a secular state and good relations with the west. No such argument embraces name-calling, sabre-rattling, sanctions or bombs.
At this very moment, US officials in Baghdad are on their knees begging Iran-backed Shia politicians and militias to help them get out of Iraq. From Basra to the suburbs of Baghdad, Iranian influence is dominant. Iranian posters adorned last month's elections. Whatever Bush and Blair thought they were doing by invading Iraq, they must have known the chief beneficiary from toppling the Sunni ascendancy would be Shia Iran. They cannot now deny the logic of their own policy. Democracy itself is putting half Iraq in thrall to its powerful neighbour.
Iran is the regional superstate. If ever there were a realpolitik demanding to be "hugged close" it is this one, however distasteful its leader and his centrifuges. If you cannot stop a man buying a gun, the next best bet is to make him your friend, not your enemy.
simon.jenkins@guardian.co.uk
[/FONT] [FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006[/FONT]
 

beystr

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
942
0
iran
#4
Author is probably right I myself think (hope I'm wrong) that IRI will get his way and possibly together with their buddies in Iraq will be more powerfull in the short run and at the expense of Iranian people.

My question from u is, R u happy that this is the case?
 

AMirza

IPL Player
Mar 19, 2004
2,996
1
#5
I did send him an e-mail:


Dear Mr. Jenkins -

Upon reading your article - as an Iranian citizen, I felt obligated to share some thoughts with you. Although you raise many valid points, your view on Iranian political system seem to be of a democracy running poorly - while in fact the Islamic regime is a dictatorship running precisely the way it was intended, with a look of democracy. In Iran these days, policies are chosen first, then proper politicians are s-elected who best fit to implement them. Another words there is no power struggle within the regime - just changes in political stances requiring different characters to implement them. For a while they played tolerant and accepting, requiring the laughing mullah, and nowadays they are playing it tough and rough with Dr. Martyr.

Something else you may want to consider is the fact that the leadership of Iran is not Iranian. They consider themselves descendants of the Arabs (seyeds) who conquered Iran some 13 centuries ago, and feel nothing other than mastership over the Iranian population.

And finally, this whole argument is not about nuclear technology - it's about terror and terrorism. I don't know if you felt terrorized after last summer's blasts in London - but terror has been what the Iranian population has been under for some 27 years now. We are in a desperate struggle to overcome the evil which has now expanded it's domain terrorizing the whole world. Please do not make this a liberal versus conservative issue - this is a war - a war we must fight and can't afford to lose.
 

beystr

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
942
0
iran
#6
good letter Amirza jon....isn't it mad that one might hate Bush enough to fall in IRI's skirt ?
like where were these peace loving crowd following Ahmadinejad's comments ?
 

ashtar

National Team Player
Aug 17, 2003
5,448
19
#7
AMirza said:
I did send him an e-mail:

Something else you may want to consider is the fact that the leadership of Iran is not Iranian. They consider themselves descendants of the Arabs (seyeds) who conquered Iran some 13 centuries ago, and feel nothing other than mastership over the Iranian population.
How do you expect to be taken serious when you make racist remarks like this?

To state that someone is not Iranian because their ancestors may not have been pure Persian is just pure racist and ignorant about what constitutes Iran and Iranian at best. No wonder some ethnic minorities in Iran seek independence. Perhaps it has partly to do with uninformed and ignorant exclusionary comments like above by people who themselves are most likely descendants of Greeks, Mongols, Turks, Russians, Arabs, Brits or many other nationalities, ethnicities, and races that have throughout centuries mixed blood with the indigenous Persian and Iranian population.

Shame, shame, shame.
 
Oct 18, 2002
11,593
3
#8
I have to agree with Ashtar; the letter was fine but that paragraph on Seyyeds and persian ancestory was uncalled for. Masoud jan, for all you know, you may have turkish, Mongol or Greek blood. Does that disqualify you as an Iranian?
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#9
I can see what AMizra is trying to say. Obviously people of any race that are born in Iran are Iranian and so are the ones that migrated there are got citizenship. That is not the point here. The point is that the current regime is more associated with arabs than with Iranian, why? They try to destroy the persian empire history a true Iranian will be proud of. It is only during those times that Iran did well. We were invaded many times and bounce back, but the arabs put an end to that with introduction of the Islamic religion by force. Now, today, the current regime in Iran want us to be more proud of that invasion that our persian empire days. They want us to learn the language of arabic and they prefer it over persian. And yes, Muhammad was arab and anyone saying they are his decendent they are implying they are arab. no people of any race and country in the world will accept someone coming and wanting to rule over them saying they are the decendent of an enemy that took you over generations ago and destroyed you, continues to create problem for you, attacked you through Iraq with the support of other arab countries, ...

So, how is Amizra wrong here. Amizra never used a racist remark here. And the Iranian arabs themselves are one of the biggest opponents of the iranian regime. Amizra does not seem to be attacking those great people.

And none of you would like it, if any race in Iran, espeically one that invaded us suddenly decide that they want to rule over all the other races and destroy the persian race, except perhaps for Akhoonds and AN and Basijis.

If you ask mojority of Iranian whether they are arabs or non-arabs, they will say non-arabs. So, why is that we have to celebrate everything arab, whether it is their culture, holidays, religiion, etc.. And the current government in Iran would kill or torture those who dont. Yeah, try eating during the arab fast season on the street. Say something against an arab khalifeh such as Ali.

Do we celebrate Cyrus birthday or death in Iran?

You want to change the system, attack it from the root and educate the people on the truth. For too long they have ruled over us.
 
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Agha Sepehr

Bench Warmer
Jan 23, 2005
534
0
Rome
#10
lordofmordor said:
I can see what AMizra is trying to say. Obviously people of any race that are born in Iran are Iranian and so are the ones that migrated there are got citizenship. That is not the point here. The point is that the current regime is more associated with arabs than with Iranian, why? They try to destroy the persian empire history a true Iranian will be proud of. It is only during those times that Iran did well. We were invaded many times and bounce back, but the arabs put an end to that with introduction of the Islamic religion by force. Now, today, the current regime in Iran want us to be more proud of that invasion that our persian empire days. They want us to learn the language of arabic and they prefer it over persian. And yes, Sayeed and decendent of Muhammad were arabs. So, how is Amizra wrong here. Amizra never used a racist remark here. And the Iranian arabs themselves are one of the biggest opponents of the iranian regime. Amizra does not seem to be attacking those great people.


And none of you would like it, if any race in Iran, espeically one that invaded us suddenly decide that they want to rule over all the other races and destroy the persian race, except perhaps for Akhoonds and AN and Basijis.

Well said...... and great picture by the way!!!
 

Dabir

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
852
0
#11
lordofmordor jon,

i like reading your posts here, coz usually you speak sense. this time however i disagree with you. i dont need to say much, i just make a few quotes!

lordofmordor said:
Obviously people of any race that are born in Iran are Iranian and so are the ones that migrated there are got citizenship.
AMirza said:
Something else you may want to consider is the fact that the leadership of Iran is not Iranian.
lordofmordor said:
So, how is Amizra wrong here.
the problem here is that Amirza probably had a good point, but he took it too far. you dont call someone who is born in iran and is raised in iran not irani! its like some blonde european turns around to a person who has irani mum and dad who has been born in europe and has lived all his/her life there and tell to him/her ur not european! isnt this how every racist incident and racist remarks starts with? this whole mentality is wrong!
 

RoozbehAzadi

National Team Player
Nov 19, 2002
4,272
0
#12
ashtar said:
How do you expect to be taken serious when you make racist remarks like this?
Shame, shame, shame.
How do YOU expect to be taken seriously when you support somebody who proclaims God shone a light on him at the UN and puts notes for Imam Zaman in the joobs of Qom??? Shame, shame, shame. :D:D:D
 

AMirza

IPL Player
Mar 19, 2004
2,996
1
#13
Actualy - the point about seyed was the highlight of the message I wanted to get across. The message being:

IRI will do anything to terrorize the world because they are not affraid of the potential retaliations in which the general Iranian population shall be hurt.

I just wish I had made that message clearer.

Ashtar - Khodeto to ISP khasteh nakon - dastet roo shodeh azizam.
The "racist" card is getting too old stop playing it - the same for the "I am Insulted" card. strat using logic more.

Beystr Jaan - Kojaii - we are getting together in Tampa this weekend - watching the NFL games as well as the WVU-UCLA game in LA on Saturday!! jaat Khalieh. Call my cel if you can.
 

beystr

Bench Warmer
Oct 18, 2002
942
0
iran
#14
Amirza Jon Mokhlesim....I worked with Kami the turk in a job but finished now and anxios to come out and see u. I left a messege on ur cell last sunday. before going to Tampa could u pls call me at home. I need to talk to u reg. Mosha too.

sorry everyone else for the pm not relating to topic.
 

Pahlevoon Nayeb

National Team Player
Oct 17, 2002
4,138
0
Poshteh Kooh
#16
beystr said:
....isn't it mad that one might hate Bush enough to fall in IRI's skirt ?
like where were these peace loving crowd following Ahmadinejad's comments ?
Agha beyster,

I am a part of what you phrased the “peace loving crowd.” I oppose a military action by ANY foreign power because I don’t want to see Esfahan – and along with it hundreds of years of history – turned into rubble. I also don’t want to see thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of Iranians die under the guise of “war on terror.”

Just because someone is a part of the “peace loving crowd” does not mean they support AN and Co. and just because someone supports a military action on Iran does not mean they love Iran.

For example, when someone says things like “I am counting on the Gheyrat of our hamvatans to not let Iran become another Iraq” they are spewing irresponsible words they cannot possibly backup; at best, hoping for a milk and honey scenario of a quick removal of IRI.

Chances are extremely high that an attack on Iran is not only NOT going to result in a quick exit by IRI but also that it will be the regular Iranians – along with the entire Iranian heritage and sovereignty – that will go up in smoke.

Attacking Iran – prompted by AN shooting off his mouth – will very likely only result in unforeseen cataclysmic events that would deny anyone who loves Iran even a country, let alone a free one.

AN and Mesbah Yazdi exist only because Bush and Rice also do and vice versa. Remove one from thee equation and the other will naturally disappear as well.
 

ashtar

National Team Player
Aug 17, 2003
5,448
19
#17
Pahlevoon Nayeb said:
Agha beyster,

I am a part of what you phrased the “peace loving crowd.” I oppose a military action by ANY foreign power because I don’t want to see Esfahan – and along with it hundreds of years of history – turned into rubble. I also don’t want to see thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of Iranians die under the guise of “war on terror.”

Just because someone is a part of the “peace loving crowd” does not mean they support AN and Co. and just because someone supports a military action on Iran does not mean they love Iran.

For example, when someone says things like “I am counting on the Gheyrat of our hamvatans to not let Iran become another Iraq” they are spewing irresponsible words they cannot possibly backup; at best, hoping for a milk and honey scenario of a quick removal of IRI.

Chances are extremely high that an attack on Iran is not only NOT going to result in a quick exit by IRI but also that it will be the regular Iranians – along with the entire Iranian heritage and sovereignty – that will go up in smoke.

Attacking Iran – prompted by AN shooting off his mouth – will very likely only result in unforeseen cataclysmic events that would deny anyone who loves Iran even a country, let alone a free one.

AN and Mesbah Yazdi exist only because Bush and Rice also do and vice versa. Remove one from thee equation and the other will naturally disappear as well.
I have to agree with Pahlevoon's main point on this one.
 

AMirza

IPL Player
Mar 19, 2004
2,996
1
#18
Dear PN

First of all - It's time to rethink your positions - when Ashtar starts liking your posts.

Second - Could it be that some of those who oppose actions against Iran to be in fact IRI supporters ?

You want to make us look like pro death war mongers who can't wait to see Esfahan destroyed - fine - but don't forget; you certainly look like one who enjoys the staus quo, doing it.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
#19
dear pahlavoon,

Somethings cannot be controlled. If AN continues what he is doing, and if there is another terrorist attack in America that can be blamed on Iran through their support of a group, then you will see America attacking Iran, most likely with the help of Europe.

Not too many countries are too happy with Iranian government and most have muslim population to worry about.

I am not in support of an invasion but also am not going to keep a blind eye saying that it will never happen. The world will not be able to handle another big terrorist attack in one of the western capitals.

At the sametime, I am also not stupid enough to say that Iran can fight the west, like regimes supporters do.

At the end of the day, this current regime acts as if they are the strongest in the world, and becasue they support the arab allah, they should rule the world. If they continue their way, and if Iranian people dont overthrow them in time, you might see an invasion.

Now, one can argue for and against the invasion and there are not many valid points to both.

But I dont bellieve Iran invasion will be like Iraq. Too many Iranians feel imprisoned by the IR and will not fight. It will be basijis and pasdaran fighting. But dont forget many people hate these animals and are looking for any chance to get revenge of them. So, unlike Iraq, there are not going to be able to hide in many places without being reported. And the army, they have been treated like crap for last 3 decades.
 

RoozbehAzadi

National Team Player
Nov 19, 2002
4,272
0
#20
AMirza said:
Dear PN

First of all - It's time to rethink your positions - when Ashtar starts liking your posts.

Second - Could it be that some of those who oppose actions against Iran to be in fact IRI supporters ?

You want to make us look like pro death war mongers who can't wait to see Esfahan destroyed - fine - but don't forget; you certainly look like one who enjoys the staus quo, doing it.
Yeah I agree. I'm certainly not in favor of attacking Iran, but this reminds me of what khomeini aka dog shit once said about relations with the US: "when the US starts to praise us we should be ashamed of ourselves." Similarly, when somebody like Bill O'Reilly or Ashtar starts agreeing with you, it might be time to rethink your positions. There's some people on the left so extreme they think Bush and company conspired and planned out 9/11. If you look at this from a calmer standpoint, not so radical or leftist, you'll see that there isn't much the US could do after the mess in Iraq other than get its friends in Europe and Japan to sanction Iran, and if it gets lucky to get the UN to place full sanctions against Iran. Militarily Bush can't afford the loss of lives and the cost of another war. Politically he certainly can't. But with previously anti-war countries like France and Germany now uniting with the US on Iran, it shows there's a consensus unlike during the whole iraq episode.

It takes somebody like Dr.AN to be able to get the French and Americans to start agreeing with each other. :peep: