This is what Hamas brought to Palestinians after a month of fighting. I am sure it will not go unnoticed by the people.
AP ANALYSIS: Hamas emerges weakened from Gaza war
AP ANALYSIS: Hamas emerges weakened from Gaza war
Interview with Israel sociologist, Eva Illouz: The Real Danger to Israel Comes from Within.
http://www.spiegel.de/international...ctedFrom=www&referrrer=https://m.facebook.com
"Israel is a colonial military power, a militarized society and a democracy all folded into one. The army, for example, controls the Palestinians through a wide network of colonial tools, such as checkpoints, military courts (governed by a legal system different from the Israeli system), the arbitrary granting of work permits, house demolitions and economic sanctions. It is a militarized civil society because almost every family has a father, son or brother in the army and because the military plays an enormous role in the ordinary mentality of ordinary Israelis and is crucial in both political decisions and in the public sphere. In fact, I would say that "security" is the paramount concept guiding Israeli society and politics. But it is also a democracy, which grants rights to gays and makes it possible for a citizen to sue the state".
http://www.spiegel.de/international...ctedFrom=www&referrrer=https://m.facebook.com
"Israel is a colonial military power, a militarized society and a democracy all folded into one. The army, for example, controls the Palestinians through a wide network of colonial tools, such as checkpoints, military courts (governed by a legal system different from the Israeli system), the arbitrary granting of work permits, house demolitions and economic sanctions. It is a militarized civil society because almost every family has a father, son or brother in the army and because the military plays an enormous role in the ordinary mentality of ordinary Israelis and is crucial in both political decisions and in the public sphere. In fact, I would say that "security" is the paramount concept guiding Israeli society and politics. But it is also a democracy, which grants rights to gays and makes it possible for a citizen to sue the state".
Illouz: "Entire generations have been raised with the territories, with Israel being a colonial power. They do not know anything else. You have the settlements which are highly ideological. They expanded and entered Israeli mainstream political life. Settlements were strengthened by systematic government policies: They got tax breaks; they had soldiers to protect them; they built roads and infrastructure which are much better than those inside the country. There are entire segments of the population that have never met a secular person and have been educated religiously. Some of these religious segments are also very nationalist. The reality we are faced with in Israel is that we must choose between liberalism and Jewishness, and if we choose Jewishness, we are condemned to become a religious Sparta which will not be sustainable. Whereas in the 1960s, you could be both socialist and Zionist, today it is not possible because of the policies and identity of Israel. Then you have the role which Jews who live outside Israel play in Israel. Many of these Jews have very right-wing views and contribute money to newspapers, think tanks and religious institutions inside Israel. Let's face it: the right has been more systematic and more mobilized, both inside and outside Israel".
For god's sake, no one is saying what Hamas is doing is right or legitimate. The problem is Israel's indiscriminate and largely disproportionate response and murder of innocent women and children on a mass scale. It has to stop. Surely with all their claims of grandeur and prowess, they can go after the culprits without killing over a thousand innocent people. If not then they should seriously stop pretending they are going after Hamas targets and just admit what we all know, they are killing people for the sake of it.
Useless rockets don't travel 80 miles and find their targets. And the only reason they haven't caused casualties is because they are being blown out of the sky. It is not that Hamas is not trying. They'd be dancing on the rooftops if they killed more. Hamas and IR were betting a lot on those rockets. After all, once fired there is no way to stop them. Then they thought they can go underground. It took 2 years and god knows how many man hours and dollars to build them then they went up in a puff of smoke in a second.
Where in that report does it cite the Hamas Health ministry?
It says that the report is compiled with help from its humanitarian partners. The numbers are not controversial, most news sources have repeated more or less the same statistics. The Washington Post has a gaza death counter: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/
Moreover, if the numbers were concocted or believed to be concocted, it's not likely the UN would use them. You seem to be under this delusion that the world is out to misrepresent the carnage because Israel is a victim of some sort of conspiracy.
Per the above link, 208. What's your point?
The reporter himself says that the area they shot from was abandoned at the time.
Gaza is also one of the most populated areas in the world (40th in rank) and is unique because of it's size and population density. The idea that there are huge fields to shoot from is not only wrong, it'd be tactically ignorant.
But that's besides the point as well: Israel has already proved it is willing to shoot into civilians regardless. They've hit UN shelters and schools even when told not to. There is no more hiding behind the lie that Hamas are at fault for civilians dying. The proportion of civilian deaths v combatants is damning.
Frankly, your posts in this discussion are disgusting. You need to take a step back and see this tragedy for what it is, and not as some political talking point you need to be on the Right (capital intended) side of.
Yes, being critical of Israel doesn't mean you're an apologist for Hamas. Even self defence has to be proportional.
There are no illusions anymore, though. Netanyahu has basically come out saying he won't stop and doesn't want a two-state settlement. Unfortunately, for some warped reason, because of the war he's got a high (~85%) approval rating in Israel. Feyenoord's posts seem to shed some light on why this mentality exists.
It says that the report is compiled with help from its humanitarian partners. The numbers are not controversial, most news sources have repeated more or less the same statistics. The Washington Post has a gaza death counter: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/
Moreover, if the numbers were concocted or believed to be concocted, it's not likely the UN would use them. You seem to be under this delusion that the world is out to misrepresent the carnage because Israel is a victim of some sort of conspiracy.
Per the above link, 208. What's your point?
The reporter himself says that the area they shot from was abandoned at the time.
Gaza is also one of the most populated areas in the world (40th in rank) and is unique because of it's size and population density. The idea that there are huge fields to shoot from is not only wrong, it'd be tactically ignorant.
But that's besides the point as well: Israel has already proved it is willing to shoot into civilians regardless. They've hit UN shelters and schools even when told not to. There is no more hiding behind the lie that Hamas are at fault for civilians dying. The proportion of civilian deaths v combatants is damning.
Frankly, your posts in this discussion are disgusting. You need to take a step back and see this tragedy for what it is, and not as some political talking point you need to be on the Right (capital intended) side of.
Yes, being critical of Israel doesn't mean you're an apologist for Hamas. Even self defence has to be proportional.
There are no illusions anymore, though. Netanyahu has basically come out saying he won't stop and doesn't want a two-state settlement. Unfortunately, for some warped reason, because of the war he's got a high (~85%) approval rating in Israel. Feyenoord's posts seem to shed some light on why this mentality exists.
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The problem is Israel does not want the 2 state solution and wants to take as much land as possible and push them into small pockets and then just keep them under control as in prison. And if any forms they fight back against Israel, even throwing stones, it hits them with M16 bullets and calls self defense and calls Palestinians provoking it.
As you mentioned, Gaza is very populated and firing rockets from anywhere will be around populations. But that is normal and in the history of societies fighting back whether it was French fighting Nazi and anyone fighting against the occupiers it will be hitting and then going into hidings. Nazis used to hang civilians to get fear into population not to come out and fight, Israelis hit the children and women and other civilians with bullets and bombs to do the same.
Israel just like Iraq attacking Iran, Nazi attacking any country, gasing jews, Israel attacking Kuwait, US attacking Iraq, Hezbolahis aginst Iranians people, they all have their own good reasons and justifications for their actions. They all create public relations, in the case of Israelis and Nazi public relations being a huge part of it. There are always ignorant part of their societies and others who will agree to their reasoning and justifications and that is why the invaders, attackers, and killers are able to do what they do.
Flint is a victim to his own ignorance who just accepts every word of the killers and the occupier in this case. He cant think back to the cause of root of problem that is occupying and building settlements, and creating hardship and pain on the occupied population. He acts as this crisis just begin a month ago and does not have the capacity to think outside of his pampered mentality what brutal acts of occupying and killing does to a population and how they will act in many ways in desperation.
As you mentioned, Gaza is very populated and firing rockets from anywhere will be around populations. But that is normal and in the history of societies fighting back whether it was French fighting Nazi and anyone fighting against the occupiers it will be hitting and then going into hidings. Nazis used to hang civilians to get fear into population not to come out and fight, Israelis hit the children and women and other civilians with bullets and bombs to do the same.
Israel just like Iraq attacking Iran, Nazi attacking any country, gasing jews, Israel attacking Kuwait, US attacking Iraq, Hezbolahis aginst Iranians people, they all have their own good reasons and justifications for their actions. They all create public relations, in the case of Israelis and Nazi public relations being a huge part of it. There are always ignorant part of their societies and others who will agree to their reasoning and justifications and that is why the invaders, attackers, and killers are able to do what they do.
Flint is a victim to his own ignorance who just accepts every word of the killers and the occupier in this case. He cant think back to the cause of root of problem that is occupying and building settlements, and creating hardship and pain on the occupied population. He acts as this crisis just begin a month ago and does not have the capacity to think outside of his pampered mentality what brutal acts of occupying and killing does to a population and how they will act in many ways in desperation.
Dont fool yourself and. Iran has not given them strong rockets and I dont believe Iran has been helping them. Iran and Hamas hav enot been in good terms.
These are toy rockets.
Iran and Israel right win military governments use each other as enemies and need each other to survive. They get much advantage from each other whether it is billions of dollars from US or keeping the military people important, popular, and critically necessary. Islamic rebublic uses the crises to keep its hezbolahi fans (not much different from you mentality wise) emotional and excited and therefore controlled.
It is not to Iran advantage to give strong rocket away to help destroy another country, especially when it has nuclear power and is very strong and can destroy Iran. Those rockets are home made. The Islamic republic regime just like any other one wants power and wants to rule. Anything that cause problem with that or risk, they will avoid.
These are toy rockets.
Iran and Israel right win military governments use each other as enemies and need each other to survive. They get much advantage from each other whether it is billions of dollars from US or keeping the military people important, popular, and critically necessary. Islamic rebublic uses the crises to keep its hezbolahi fans (not much different from you mentality wise) emotional and excited and therefore controlled.
It is not to Iran advantage to give strong rocket away to help destroy another country, especially when it has nuclear power and is very strong and can destroy Iran. Those rockets are home made. The Islamic republic regime just like any other one wants power and wants to rule. Anything that cause problem with that or risk, they will avoid.
In the same way you can say why does Israel send army inside to go in and fight on the ground rather than bomb women and children from the sky. Nazis used to hang masses of people women and civilian to create fear and force the freedom fighters to stop fighting the occupants. Israel bombs the women and children to do the same.
It is a populated area and anywhere they use heavy weapons you will kill civilians. In the same way, that you want the fighters to come out in the open and with few bombs get killed, you can say Israel can send army on the ground and fight. Gaza is populated and anywhere you hit with heavy weapons you will kill civilians.
It is a populated area and anywhere they use heavy weapons you will kill civilians. In the same way, that you want the fighters to come out in the open and with few bombs get killed, you can say Israel can send army on the ground and fight. Gaza is populated and anywhere you hit with heavy weapons you will kill civilians.
Actually Behrooz Jan, to my surprise some friends here make that claim 
Just read some of the earlier posts under this thread.
"Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. "
Question: "What does Hamas want?"
Answer: "You mean besides their human rights? Not much."
So yes, the claim has been made here very clearly.
Just read some of the earlier posts under this thread."Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. "
Question: "What does Hamas want?"
Answer: "You mean besides their human rights? Not much."
So yes, the claim has been made here very clearly.
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Actually Behrooz Jan, to my surprise some friends here make that claim Just read some of the earlier posts under this thread.
"Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. "
Question: "What does Hamas want?"
Answer: "You mean besides their human rights? Not much."
So yes, the claim has been made here very clearly.
Just read some of the earlier posts under this thread."Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. "
Question: "What does Hamas want?"
Answer: "You mean besides their human rights? Not much."
So yes, the claim has been made here very clearly.
Actually Behrooz Jan, to my surprise some friends here make that claim Just read some of the earlier posts under this thread.
"Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. "
Question: "What does Hamas want?"
Answer: "You mean besides their human rights? Not much."
So yes, the claim has been made here very clearly.
Just read some of the earlier posts under this thread."Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. "
Question: "What does Hamas want?"
Answer: "You mean besides their human rights? Not much."
So yes, the claim has been made here very clearly.
But the problem is the action of this Israeli government. One can be in favour of Israel but against the current government, which in my view is completely nuts and unjustified in their actions. Netanyahu is as fanatic and extremist as those he accuses of. That's the problem.
^^^ No Doubt Behrooz Jan, Netanyahu is the Israel version of Hamas leader.
By the way, another Cease fire was broken by Hamas :
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/08/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
By the way, another Cease fire was broken by Hamas :
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/08/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Actually Behrooz Jan, to my surprise some friends here make that claim Just read some of the earlier posts under this thread.
"Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. "
Question: "What does Hamas want?"
Answer: "You mean besides their human rights? Not much."
So yes, the claim has been made here very clearly.
Just read some of the earlier posts under this thread."Hamas attacking their occupiers, even if they targeted civilians, while never good, is still clearly understandable. "
Question: "What does Hamas want?"
Answer: "You mean besides their human rights? Not much."
So yes, the claim has been made here very clearly.
The context was that the acts of Palestinians having been occupied illegally and subject to several breaches of human rights can be understood, even if not condoned. In the very quote you have "while never good, is understandable". That doesn't equate to "right or legitimate" which in themselves have varied meanings. If someone kills your mother, I can understand you looking for vengeance, even if I do not condone it.
After several posts clarifying that statement, you still resort to it. That says a lot about your character. If your prejudice wasn't evident before, it is now.
As an aside, it's more than slightly disgusting for someone like you to try to use the deaths of civilians for your rhetoric and your argument for equality, when there is something of a 1300+ to 3 difference in civilian deaths right now. Like Flint, you appear to have no shame.
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One has to becareful with the above rhetoric. Hamas has several leaders and spokesmen. The ones in power now have not called for the above and have moved away from it to wanting peace and a two state settlement. In essence, they also believe Israel has a right to exist determined on pre-1967 borders; but it does not have a right to occupy them. That's illegal and morally bankrupt. Contrast that with the Israeli PM who has declared he does not want a two-state settlement.
Conveniently, people forget that Likud, the right wing Israeli party (Netanyahu's party), also rejects a Palestinian state and denies them the right to be sovereign.
Also, for your own interest, I'd encourage you to listen to many Norman Finkelstein speeches on this topic. His parents were survivors of the Nazi holocaust that killed all his family from both sides.
Conveniently, people forget that Likud, the right wing Israeli party (Netanyahu's party), also rejects a Palestinian state and denies them the right to be sovereign.
Also, for your own interest, I'd encourage you to listen to many Norman Finkelstein speeches on this topic. His parents were survivors of the Nazi holocaust that killed all his family from both sides.
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The question is what happens when this is over. Netanyu is already making it clear that he is not going to let go of the occupation. And he is not talking at all about stopping the settlements. For him, status Quo is the way to go where he can go on grabbing more lands gradually.
When few years from now the Palestinians take the next action to fight back, we will have the same people coming here and saying Oh my god, those crazy Palastinians again going out Israel and Israel has the right to protect themselves. Hypocrisy, only Israel has right to protect themselves? Then we get something worst than Hamas as conflict keeps on creating more radical groups. Meanwhile, Israel is getting more radical too and will find US as the only friend.
Abbas has been a threat to the radicals in Israel as he wants peace and recognition of Israel, etc. They cant wait for him to die so they can say there is no one to talk to on the other side, even though, they are saying it now when he is still there in power and alive and screaming lets talk.
When few years from now the Palestinians take the next action to fight back, we will have the same people coming here and saying Oh my god, those crazy Palastinians again going out Israel and Israel has the right to protect themselves. Hypocrisy, only Israel has right to protect themselves? Then we get something worst than Hamas as conflict keeps on creating more radical groups. Meanwhile, Israel is getting more radical too and will find US as the only friend.
Abbas has been a threat to the radicals in Israel as he wants peace and recognition of Israel, etc. They cant wait for him to die so they can say there is no one to talk to on the other side, even though, they are saying it now when he is still there in power and alive and screaming lets talk.
The way this changes is when the American jews finally topple over the support for the state of Israel in America. Because of what has happened, there has been a lot of backlash towards Israel and the lobby they control in America. Unlike their Israeli counterparts who are right-wing conservatives, the American jews are left-wing liberals who have a huge problem with human rights offences and are generally, politically, anti-war. It's a matter of time, and once America is pressured into removing their support...then the real face of Israel will come to the fore.