this is just fucked up...

Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
Perfectly put. I think at one point there were the right and left in power with the belief that Israel becoming very powerful can show Palastinians that there is no choice but to accept the right of existence. And they will come to accept. American and many went with it.

However, as Israel become very strong, being a military nation, the Palastinians came to accept as did Arab world, but the very right took over in Israel. They came to believe they dont need to give lands back and they can just dominate and keep occupation. And since then, they have been becoming more isolated. To the point, that with all the Israel lobbying going on, US is having a hard time telling the rest of the world it is fully supporting their occupation when the slightest complain on dont bomb UN schools with women and children in it is hit back as Obama being pro-Hamas.



This is the kind of immature reaction you'd expect from someone who looks at this tragedy in terms of a game. If you are occupying and harassing a people, you can't turn around and feign victimhood. The only way Gaza will be unoccupied is when Israel completely leave it and let the Palestinians do whatever they want as an independent state.

At best, you can say both parties are breaking international law; at worst you have to accept one side is the far bigger transgressor and is practising genocide. The Hamas charter is just a cheap fallback for a talking point by Israeli mouthpieces. While they may have been fervent in the past (the charter was drafted more than 20 years ago), they no longer are so: Aziz Dwaik, who is the most senior rep in the West Bank, has already said that Hamas has accepted Israel’s right to exist and would be prepared to nullify its charter. In any event, Israel has no reason to fear anyone in the Arab states; they are stronger militarily than the rest of the arab nations combined.

Whatever games you want to play with this discussion; right now it is the Israelis that are stopping this tragedy from ending. The Palestinians know they will never have the might to challenge Israel, all they want is their homes now. But even then, just watch the Israelis stoke the flames by being unreasonable with regards to boundaries and settlements, etc, as they have been many times before. This game is old. The international community has been condemning Israel for a long time now, the Americans should (and are becoming more inclined to) do the same.
 

TeamMeli

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2014
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@Lord you bring up some fair points you would think the Israeli's would be a little more sympathetic or this regime would be a little more sympathetic but once both groups went from being oppressed to being the oppressors, they maintained the status quo. I think there is a big psychological factor especially with the Jewish group. They were abused and they went through crap for so long, the second they got some power they did the same thing to others. Again I think people know my stance by now I am 100% neutral on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict I'm like Switzerland. I believe Israel has the right to exist but they don't have the right to build settlements. I also believe that Palestine should be a state but Hamas should not be in power and Palestinians need to hold their end of the bargain and act like a state before they can become one. No matter what your side is I'm sure we can all agree on one thing, there is blood on both sides.
 

TeamMeli

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Feb 5, 2014
9,312
313
Las Vegas, NV
I've just read about the current death toll:

Palestinians: 1,831 deaths (about 3/4 civilians)
Israelis: 67 deaths (majority are soldiers)
I just want to say one thing I am 100% neutral but you will never hear about this in the US they like to keep that quite here because that doesn't look good for Israel.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
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TeamMeli, my instance is perfectly as you state here as well. It is the settlements that has been the impediment to peace. Not only land grab but also strategically built on top of the water resources control.

@Lord you bring up some fair points you would think the Israeli's would be a little more sympathetic or this regime would be a little more sympathetic but once both groups went from being oppressed to being the oppressors, they maintained the status quo. I think there is a big psychological factor especially with the Jewish group. They were abused and they went through crap for so long, the second they got some power they did the same thing to others. Again I think people know my stance by now I am 100% neutral on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict I'm like Switzerland. I believe Israel has the right to exist but they don't have the right to build settlements. I also believe that Palestine should be a state but Hamas should not be in power and Palestinians need to hold their end of the bargain and act like a state before they can become one. No matter what your side is I'm sure we can all agree on one thing, there is blood on both sides.
 

TeamMeli

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2014
9,312
313
Las Vegas, NV
TeamMeli, my instance is perfectly as you state here as well. It is the settlements that has been the impediment to peace. Not only land grab but also strategically built on top of the water resources control.
Well I have some pretty cool Jewish friends who are also against the settlements. This is where the source of the conflict is coming from. Also, I know what they do is not cool. They will shut off the power and electricity at your house, hoping that you would just give up and leave. If you don't leave they will just bulldoze your house and build a settlement. You have cool Jews like my friends then you have the jerks who go, "It's my land" and they will leave NY and go kick out some Palestinian.

Now with all of that being said I am neutral and the Palestinians elected Hamas now they are stuck with Hamas. Abbas doesn't run anything(I think he is still technically in power right) Hamas calls the shots in that country. Of course I am also not a fan of the Palestinians I still remember as a young kid growing up in US, Mr. Arafat cheered when Khomeini came to power but when Saddam invaded Iran, he sided with his Arab brother.
 
Feb 22, 2005
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I agree. I too have Israeli friends who are on both side.

Unfortunately, military crisis brings out rough tough war monger bullies into power. And if you are not a bully proclaiming lets go kill them, you quickly gets punched to the side or executed by the next bully who gets other bullies to follow him saying lets go kill those ... Such is Netanyahu, Sharon, Arafat. Hamas, Hezbolahis after revolution and during the war with Iraq, etc.

Having said that Abbas has been pretty much on the peace side from the beginning and Palestinians putting him in charge showed that they wanted peace. Israelis created Hamas to counter balance Palestinian Authority and dived the Palestinians. Divide and conquer.

At every turn, Israelis have weakened Abbas.

Now, I am not a fan of Palastinians Arabs and the Islamic regime, and am much more alike as Israelis. However, calling out injustices over justices whoever is doing it is the right way.

Do I like those toy missiles being thrown by Hamas? No. Do I like Hamas, no. However, desperations and oppressions creates hardline people like Hamas who are willing to go to any links. Look at Israeli rights who after their generations suffered are willing to do the same to others.

But cause of problems. You cant take over lands and kick out people into small pockets, ethnic cleansing them and then build settlements taking their homes and then shoot them with bullets when they try to kick back unarmed and then blame it on them. You get Hamas. Kudo to Abbas and the Palastinian intellectuals who after so many massacres see peace and recognizing Israel as the way to go forward. Building more settlements is not the way to make peace with them.

Well I have some pretty cool Jewish friends who are also against the settlements. This is where the source of the conflict is coming from. Also, I know what they do is not cool. They will shut off the power and electricity at your house, hoping that you would just give up and leave. If you don't leave they will just bulldoze your house and build a settlement. You have cool Jews like my friends then you have the jerks who go, "It's my land" and they will leave NY and go kick out some Palestinian.

Now with all of that being said I am neutral and the Palestinians elected Hamas now they are stuck with Hamas. Abbas doesn't run anything(I think he is still technically in power right) Hamas calls the shots in that country. Of course I am also not a fan of the Palestinians I still remember as a young kid growing up in US, Mr. Arafat cheered when Khomeini came to power but when Saddam invaded Iran, he sided with his Arab brother.
 

TeamMeli

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2014
9,312
313
Las Vegas, NV
^^Looks like we both arrived at the same conclusion these settlements are the source of the problem and honestly you can't play the role of the victim when you are kicking people out and your army is stronger. I truly hope one day there is peace but honestly between us, I don't think it's happening in my lifetime. I also agreed with what you said about the bully mentality.
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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I've just read about the current death toll:

Palestinians: 1,831 deaths (about 3/4 civilians)
Israelis: 67 deaths (majority are soldiers)
And who is the mouthpiece here? Where did you get that 1,831 number? Hamas information ministry no doubt. And you dutifully report it here. Since you are so up on casualty numbers, how many Hamas fighters have been killed? Can you tell us that?

If the Israelis killed is low it is not because of lack of trying on the Hamas part. Iron Dome intercepted 500 missiles. If each one killed 10, you'd have 5000 Israelis killed. Iron Dome has sent shivers up and down the middle east, particularly in Tehran. I somehow missed your praise of this technological wonder.
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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I am sure Lord or Kaz will be posting this video anytime but I decided to go ahead. A right wing news service, as in Indians, saw what the world knew already (except for a couple of Hamas hacks here)

[video=youtube;AAVInCRmgww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAVInCRmgww[/video]
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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Do I like those toy missiles being thrown by Hamas?
Now they are toy missiles? THey are the pride and joy of the Islamic Republic. Hamas thought they would break Israel if they could get their hands on some missiles. Their patrons In Tehran told them so. Thank God for Ronald Reagan and his vision that was ridiculed by every two it liberal as "star wars". Wonder why Hezbollah khafeh khoon gerefteh during all this bloodshed? It is because they know their ace in the hole is now little more than fireworks. Your tunnels are kaput and your little fireworks are getting blown right out of the sky. No wonder they cried uncle. They could have gone to Cairo 3 weeks ago when 2000 people were still alive.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
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I might as well turn Fox news on and I will hear exactly what you say. Facts are:

Hamas has their own agenda to make themselves stronger when they had become very weak and Israel completely made them stronger as they have done before. You keep making it about Hamas which we dont give a damn about.

However,

1) That does not justify for 7 years Israel making Gaza a place than people rather die than living there.
2) Does not justify throwing bomb on women and children, especially 7 times on UN schools where the refugees are.
3) Building settlements and taking lands.
4) Weakening Abbas who has been fighting for peace even at cost of alienating himself with some Palestinians.

You are so stuck in your head that you cant even listen clearly and see what people are saying here and keep on making Sh** up. For thousand times, no one here supports Hamas throwing rockets and unlike you I dont like seeing people die, let alone women and children. But you dont get that they are the creation of the conflict caused by oppression, and brutal occupation. Hamas is created by decades of occupation building settlements, taking lands rather than making peace. Now stupidly keep on complaining why do Palastinians take desperate actions.

Because a kid like you isolated in the US pampered does not have the capacity to imagine the situation and get it. Mama, Mama, why do these crazy Palastinians throw rocks and kick back at the poor Israelis who all they are trying to do is ethnic cleanse them and kick them out of their homes where for centuries their parents and grand parents have lived. Because to make room for Canadian, Amerian, and other jews who have never lived there to go kick a Palastinian out of their centuries of owning the farm.

Now, start using your brains for once and tell me:

How the hell are Palestinians suppose to get out of the chains of inhuman conditions Israel has put them under occupying their lands and keeping on ethnic cleansing them and pushing them into small pockets.

You are nothing short of a Nazi and you don't even know it. Supporting women and children getting killed without having any little compassion, and supporting ethnic cleansing, shows you are a Nazi, and not much different than a hezbolahi. In power, you would do no different than any of these fascist killers.



Now they are toy missiles? THey are the pride and joy of the Islamic Republic. Hamas thought they would break Israel if they could get their hands on some missiles. Their patrons In Tehran told them so. Thank God for Ronald Reagan and his vision that was ridiculed by every two it liberal as "star wars". Wonder why Hezbollah khafeh khoon gerefteh during all this bloodshed? It is because they know their ace in the hole is now little more than fireworks. Your tunnels are kaput and your little fireworks are getting blown right out of the sky. No wonder they cried uncle. They could have gone to Cairo 3 weeks ago when 2000 people were still alive.
 
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Feb 22, 2005
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This is a good example of what is going on around the world on the issue. Here From England as an example:

From England MPs committee:

Israel's policies in Gaza are likely to be counter-productive to its own security situation, MPs have warned, as they called for David Cameron to do more over the issue.

The Commons International Development Committee said:

We saw a country whose people have known immense suffering now imposing conditions on their Palestinian neighbours which cause a different but very real suffering and often without real security justification.

We saw Israel taking a range of actions that hinder Palestinian economic development and must, at the very least, cause deep resentment on the Palestinian side, even amongst the most moderate and pragmatic people, and so will actually worsen Israel's own security.

– COMMONS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE

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The Commons International Development Committee said they were "shocked" by what they had seen during the conflict and argued controls on the movements of Gazans were not "proportionate".

It called on the government to persuade the Israelis to improve the supply of water and electricity.

The call comes after Baroness Warsi resigned from the government over what she called its "morally indefensible" stance on Gaza.

------------------

– DAVID CAMERON'S LETTER TO BARONESS WARSI

I realise that this must not have been an easy decision for you to make and very much regret that we were not able to speak about your decision beforehand.

I understand your strength of feeling on the current crisis in the Middle East – the situation in Gaza is intolerable. Our policy has always been consistently clear: we support a negotiated two state solution as the only way to resolve this conflict once and for all and to allow Israelis and Palestinians to live safely in peace.



------------

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg says he wants to see arms licences to Israel suspended after the country "overstepped the mark" in its attacks on Gaza.

The Liberal Democrats leader said he shared Baroness Warsi's "concerns" over Britain's relations with Israel and said such licences should be halted pending an existing review of whether they should be revoked more permanently in future.
 
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Aug 26, 2005
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And who is the mouthpiece here? Where did you get that 1,831 number? Hamas information ministry no doubt. And you dutifully report it here. Since you are so up on casualty numbers, how many Hamas fighters have been killed? Can you tell us that?

If the Israelis killed is low it is not because of lack of trying on the Hamas part. Iron Dome intercepted 500 missiles. If each one killed 10, you'd have 5000 Israelis killed. Iron Dome has sent shivers up and down the middle east, particularly in Tehran. I somehow missed your praise of this technological wonder.
I got the numbers from Democracy now and TYT. But the UN has the the following numbers:

Palestinians: 1814 killed (including at least 1,312 civilians, of whom 408 are children and 214 are women)
Israel: 67 killed ( including 64 soldiers, two civilians and one foreign national)

Further:

-9,536 People have been injured, including 2,877 children
-520,000 People may be displaced, staying in emergency shelters or with host families
-65,000 Displaced people had their homes destroyed or damaged beyond repair

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_sitrep_05_08_2014.pdf

That good enough? You just have no shame. You will repeat the same garbage as long as it allows you to have a visage of a point.

I am sure Lord or Kaz will be posting this video anytime but I decided to go ahead. A right wing news service, as in Indians, saw what the world knew already (except for a couple of Hamas hacks here)

[video=youtube;AAVInCRmgww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAVInCRmgww[/video]
And this proves what?

A member of the same news team has called the ongoings genocide.
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
After all the massacre, killing children and women and bombing UN schools full of refugees, destroying 60000 homes and making them homeless, injuring so many people including children who will be maimed having lost limbs, and US giving 320 millions to Israel and will give more to cover the cost of the bombs, bullets and military operation they carried, Israel will now try to go back to status quo where they can keep Gaza people in a huge open prison and take more lands. That is what Israel has been brutally doing for 70 years. Only one goal, ethnic cleanse and take as much of the lands.

As a right wing zionist friend already posted this morning on another site showing small gaps in area he deemed not populated in Gaza toto show they are not living on top of each other. Guess they see opportunity of the killings to create some buffer zone and take more lands.

 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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I got the numbers from Democracy now and TYT. But the UN has the the following numbers:

Palestinians: 1814 killed (including at least 1,312 civilians, of whom 408 are children and 214 are women)
Israel: 67 killed ( including 64 soldiers, two civilians and one foreign national)
Where did the UN get its numbers from? You guessed it. Hamas Health ministry (what a joke). And you are bemoaning the low Israeli casualty numbers. You sound disappointed. Now one more time. The number is low is because Hamas rockets were blown out of the sky, not that they didn't try.

Further:

-9,536 People have been injured, including 2,877 children
-520,000 People may be displaced, staying in emergency shelters or with host families
-65,000 Displaced people had their homes destroyed or damaged beyond repair
You are so good with numbers. How many Hamas fighters died? You have a number for that too? I am not holding my breath.







And this proves what?

A member of the same news team has called the ongoings genocide.
Mr. I-am-not-Hamas-supporter is willing to besmirch anyone to make excuses for Hamas. What do you mean what does this prove? Are you blind? They are firing from people's backyards and you say what does it prove? You are an out and out Hamas hack. Your buddies went to Cairo on their knees after getting 2000 of their people killed. What is the difference now and 3 weeks ago?
 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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Stop posting this map. It makes arabs look stupid. Every expansion was caused by a war that Arabs started. Now they are begging to get backwhat they had in 1967. Look what they could have had in 1946. Why they lost so much? Because at every historical period, there were people like you goading them into attacking Israel.
 

Silverton

National Team Player
Nov 6, 2004
4,524
6
I got the numbers from Democracy now and TYT. But the UN has the the following numbers:

Palestinians: 1814 killed (including at least 1,312 civilians, of whom 408 are children and 214 are women)
Israel: 67 killed ( including 64 soldiers, two civilians and one foreign national)

Further:

-9,536 People have been injured, including 2,877 children
-520,000 People may be displaced, staying in emergency shelters or with host families
-65,000 Displaced people had their homes destroyed or damaged beyond repair

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_sitrep_05_08_2014.pdf

That good enough? You just have no shame. You will repeat the same garbage as long as it allows you to have a visage of a point.



And this proves what?

A member of the same news team has called the ongoings genocide.
He also said that Israeli rhetoric of targeting Hamas and not civilians is not what they see (on the ground). The second tweet is from same crew - where she calls it genocide (as you mentioned)




-----------------

Some Wikileaks - on deliberate civilian targeting and mass destruction by Israel






 

Flint

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Jan 28, 2006
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Here is another one. Of course, from the Hamas corner on ISP we will here "what does it prove?" I tell you what it proves. It proves Hamas is shoving their own people into the meat grinder. In the other video, the cowards run away and leave the children they cry for all the time behind.

[video=youtube;uE3feo_b8Cg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE3feo_b8Cg[/video]
 
Feb 22, 2005
6,884
9
None of the people are hamas supporters but rather people who see injustices. There is Palastinian version, then Israel version, and then the UN version that represent 150 countries around the world.

You are the only one here who seem to enjoy seeing children killed and seem very disappointed you did not kill them yourself. I hope at least you are getting money for your one sided fundamentalist views that is no difference than Hamas, Hezbolahis, and Israeli right wing. A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist and your views are one.

Alot of children and women and civilian died in this conflict. UN has people on the ground and reported it. Even Israeli's number even though lower are high. But the fundamentalist you, who is does not have the brain capacity to get it for himself and has to get it from Fox and Israeli voice. There are many newspaper and magazines from around the world, including NY Times. Use that brain.
.

Where did the UN get its numbers from? You guessed it. Hamas Health ministry (what a joke). And you are bemoaning the low Israeli casualty numbers. You sound disappointed. Now one more time. The number is low is because Hamas rockets were blown out of the sky, not that they didn't try.



You are so good with numbers. How many Hamas fighters died? You have a number for that too? I am not holding my breath.









Mr. I-am-not-Hamas-supporter is willing to besmirch anyone to make excuses for Hamas. What do you mean what does this prove? Are you blind? They are firing from people's backyards and you say what does it prove? You are an out and out Hamas hack. Your buddies went to Cairo on their knees after getting 2000 of their people killed. What is the difference now and 3 weeks ago?